MINUTES OF THE SENATE OF SIMON FRASER UNIVERSITY

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HELD IN THE BOARD AND SENATE ROOM

ON MONDAY, AUGUST 29. 1966. AT 1:30 PM

PRESENT:

P. D. McTaggart-Cowan

Chairman

R. J. Baker

M. Bawtree

T. B. Bottomore

A. E. Branca

T. H. Brose

C. L. Bursill-Hall

A. B. Cunningham

J. L. Dampier

A. J. Ellis

J. F. Ellis

W. M.

Hamilton

A. F. C. Hean

C. Kirchner

E. S. Lett

A. R. MacKinnon

Mills

C. D. Nelson

K. E. Rieckhoff

E. M. Shoemaker

C. M. Shrum

D. H. Sullivan

W. H. Whiteley

D. P. Robertson

Secretary

ABSENT:

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C. J. Frederickson

I. Koerner

C. H. McLean

G. N. Perry

A. M.

Unrau

W. Vidaver

APPROVAL OF MINUTES

On page 1 the minutes of August 1st were corrected by deletion of the

name of D. H. Sullivan from the names of those present.

On page 2. the motion under section (C) should read:

"that Biology 408-3, Biophysics, and Chemistry 201-3, Bonding,

Structure and Sterochemistry, be given provisional approval

and brought back to Senate at a later meeting"

A correction of the section under "Time Limit" at the top of page 3 was

distributed at the meeting by the Secretary.

The minutes were approved with the foregoing corrections.

BUSINESS ARISING FROM THE MINUTES

Nil

S3. NEW BUSINESS

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A. Grading System

The Chairman referred to the papers on the Grading System distributed

prior to the previous meeting and to the transcripts and covering notes - 2 -

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distributed at this meeting and requested the Registrar to report on the procedure

for recording student records. The,Registrar briefly explained the record form

and how it was prepared. He then mentioned the various changes in the grading

system and requested the approval of Senate on the page attached to the sample

transcripts which had been distributed at the meeting, as it was intended that

Lhis

note be sent out with the official records.

The Chancellor requested that the exact enrolment figure be quoted in the

first paragraph of the covering note. G Kirchner recommended that the cumulative

grade point be recorded on the transcript

The Chairman ruled that this latter

point be considered after the grading: had been discussed.

In opening the discussion on the grading system the Chairman stated that

there appeared to be no objection to the use of the four point system for exter-

nal presentation of examination results, as shown on the final column of the

permanent record. He therefore recommended that Senate first reach a decision on

this question and then proceed with the debate on the question of the finer grading

system for internal use.

Moved by J. F. Ellis, seconded by G. Bursill-Hall

"that Senate endorse the four point grade system for

external use"

CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY

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There followed a debate on the relative merits of fine and course grading.

K. E. Rieckhoff recommended that since no grading system had yet been given a

fair trial, the University should use the system which had previously been approved

by Senate for a proper trial period and if any real problems develop, refer the

matter again to Senate at a later date. He pointed out that the system which

Senate had approved was a compromise scheme and if it were dropped and a finer

scheme adopted, those who wanted a four point scale would withdraw their endorse-

ment of the compromise system and want a full hearing on the four point system.

C. D. Nelson reported that the Science Faculty had supported the compromise

system, in spite of the fact that there was strong preference for the four point

system, but if there was any question of a finer system the Science Faculty would

wish a full discussion on the four point system.

T. H. Brose stated that the majority of the Arts Faculty wanted C+ in the

grading system as a means of overcoming the problem of reconciling the letter

system with numerical system. T B. Bottomore stated that if the four point system

were used the Scholarship Committee would ask for' percentage 'marks. The Chairman

stated that the Scholarship Committee would not be required to judge scholarships

on the external grading system.

Moved by J. F. Ellis, seconded by A. R. MacKinnon,

"that the grading system as passed by Senate be approved"

T. H. Brose opposed the motion. He proposed that Science mark on the broad

structure and Arts on the fine structure and stated that this system should not

be imposed on those who had sent it back to Senate.

R. J. Baker stated that it was necessary for all faculty to learn to use

a standard system for a trial period and that it was important that all be

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properly briefed on its use. He further stated that the percentage in

the Arts Faculty opposed to the system passed by Senate was not as great

as stated; since those who were prepared to work with the system had not

been present at the meeting which requested that Senate reconsider its

decision.

The Chairman referred to the motion

"that the grading system as passed by Senate be approved"

CARRIED (15 to 4)

D. H. Sullivan and T. H. Brose requested their negative votes be recorded.

Preliminary Report on Summer Semester 1966 Grades (Undergraduate)

The Registrar reported on his Paper 4 A, which had been distri-

buted at the meeting, and requested that Senate approve that the question

of those students to be placed on probation be left to the discretion of

the Senate Committee on Undergraduate Admissions. T. B. Bottomre asked

the Registrar to explain what probation consisted of. The Registrar then

reported that when a student was placed on probation he was informed that

unless special permission was granted he must register in a full academic

program of not less than twelve semester hours and not more than fifteen

semester hours; must secure a C. average or better; must complete on time,

and to the satisfaction of his instructors, all term work required: and that

failure to fulfill these conditions might result in his being asked to

withdraw from the University.

The Chairman stated that approval of the Registrar's request could

be given at this time without prejudice to on-coming students and the

matter referred back to another meeting.

Moved by G. Bursill-Hall, seconded by K. E. Rieckhoff

"that the question of those students placed on probation

be left to the discretion of the Senate Committee on

Undergraduate admissions with the assurance that this

question would be discussed at a later meeting of Senate"

CARRIED

Moved by K. E. Riekhoff, seconded by the Chancellor

"that the Registrar, in consultation with the Senate

Undergraduate Admissions Committee, prepare a report

on the question of academic standings for discussian

at the next meeting of Senate"

CARRIED

The question of reporting the cumulative grade point average was

discussed. The Chairman pointed out that the cumulative grade point av-

erage was the grade point average for all semesters taken at the University

and that at an early joint faculty discussion that set up the President's

Committee on Grading the cumulative average was not endorsed.

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Moved by T. H. Brose, Seconded by K. E. Rieckhoff

"that the cumulative grade point average be recorded

on student records"

Moved by R. J. Baker, seconded by C. D. Nelson

"that this matter be tabled and that the Registrar

present relevant material to the members for dis-

cussion at a later meeting"

MOTION TABLED

Note to go with Transcript

The Registrar requested the endorsement of Senate of the note to

go with transcripts. In making his request the Registrar explained that

the reason the note was necessary was primarily for students transferring

whose transcripts might have marks (such as C+) which were not shown in

the calendar.

The question of the note was discussed and it was agreed that such

a note should be issued with the transcripts, but that the opening para-

graph should state the exact enrolment figure and the wording be changed

to state simply that the grading system in the first two semesters was

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slightly different from the present scale.

In the discussion of what to show on the transcripts it was pointed

out that the Senate had approved the grading system to be shown. The

Chancellor asked if two sets of records would be maintained; since averages

on the finer scale would be required for scholarship purposes. The Regi-

strar explained that the data was processed by the 1401 Computer so that

if transcript marks were required the broad scale was printed and if

scholarship marks were required the internal use scale would be recorded

automatically.

The question of percentage distribution of grades was discussed.

R. J. Baker stated that publication of such information could be useful

to students and to other universities. The Registrar stated that such

information could be made available, but that until the University had

more experience he felt it would be unwise to publish such information

for other Universities. The Chancellor expressed the opinion that faculty

should be told what the guide lines are. Concern was expressed about

setting up percentages which were expected and it was generally agreed

that this was very undesirable. R. J. Baker stated that he had not pro-

posed that this information be made available immediately to outside

universities and withdrew the suggestion. He stated that one reason for

making the suggestion was that students sometimes had no-.understanding

of what the marks meant and might fail to apply for scholarships to which

they were entitled because they had no understanding of the distribution

of marks. He recommended that this question be considered at some future

meeting.

3B student Representation on Senate

Baker commented on his paper, stating that ultimately he

would agree with the suggestion presented in the paper submitted by

T. H. Brose, but felt this should evolve slowly: and that student

representation should commence by having the students elect a non-student.

G. Bursill-Hall stated that he was in favor of the proposal out-

lined in the paper by R. J. Baker, but would not at this time support

any motion that resulted in a student becoming a member of Senate.

Moved by R. J. Baker, seconded by C. D. Nelson

"that the proposal by R. J. Baker on Student Representation

on Senate be adopted as the first step towards student

representation"

T. H. Brose stated that he felt the idea of a student representative

was good, but did not share the hesitancy of other members to allow the

students to participate in their university. He then proposed an amend-

ment to the motion made by R. J. Baker,

"that Senate authorize the seat and designate it as the

seat of the representative of the students and permit the

students to elect someone in October as their representa-

tive on Senate"

The Chairman ruled that this would be an alternative to the first

motion, since the motion included not only the position of a Rector now,

but moved to broaden the concept later.

R. J. Baker then amended his motion to state

"that Senate add a member elected by the students"

This would leave the title for the decision of the students. He

stated he would not agree to a student representative.

T. H. Bottomore stated that the proposal that Senate should elect

a non-student seemed difficult. He pointed out that the appointment

would be for three years and that this was a long time to delay student

representation by the students. He recommended that the matter be de-

ferred until there was a more complete student body and the representa-

tion could be open.

G. Bursill-Hall requested clarification on the motion: whether it

was on the position of a Rector who was a non-student or a Rector who

might be a student representative.

The Chairman stated that the motion was in three parts:

I. The proposal as set out in the paper presented by R. J. Baker,

2. amended to read instead of "Rector","the representative

member of Senate elected by the students", and

3. in due course when a full spectrum of students is in

attendance at the University, the whole question of

limitations will be examined.

D. H. Sullivan stated that by the terms of the Act the term of

appointment was three years. This would mean that a freshman or sophomore

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would be the only student eligible. Therefore he was against the motion.

He also objected to the fact that members of faculty were excluded, stating

that what the students would want would probably be a representative

from the faculty.

L S. Lett asked why it was urgent to

this time and asked if there would be any lo

cussion until there was a full complement of

R. J. Baker stated that he considered

step now as there is a great deal of concern

represented.

consider this question at

ss in deferring the dis-

students.

this would be a desirable

about various groups being

C. D. Nelson stated that he did not consider three years too long

to deny representation by students on Senate. He reported that one of

the members of the student government intends to take only a small number

of courses, so that he can devote himself to student government. He

stated that this was a criticism on the number of things that have to

be done and considered it would take three years to sort them out and

come to some sort of pattern for the trimester system. He considered

that a representative elected by students to Senate was a good way to

start and that such representation would give the students a great deal

of help.

T. H. Brose stated that there appeared to be some feeling that

a non-student should be the representative the students choose and stated

that they should be trusted to elect a non-student.

Moved by D. H. Sullivan, seconded by T. H. Brose

"to delete the words "or a member of faculty" from the

motion proposed by R. J. Baker"

AMENDMENT LOST

The Chairman then asked for a vote on the motion by R. J. Baker,

"that Senate add a member elected by the students, and that

such a member be called a Student Representative. This Student

Representative would not be a student or a member of faculty.

He would be elected by bona fide students registered in courses

at the time of the election,and for a term of three years; he

should be a resident of British Columbia"

CARRIED

G. L. Bursill-Hall abstained from voting and requested that this

be recorded in the minutes.

The questions of which students would be eligible to vote and

the best time for holding the election of the student representative

to Senate were discussed and it was agreed that students registered for

twelve semester hours or more were eligible to vote and that the election

be held in the spring semester(1967): The elected representative to

take his seat at the February Senate meeting.

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The Chancellor referred back to Dean Nelson's report that one of

the members of the Student Council had cut down on his courses in order

to devote time to Student Council work and recommended that a committee

be set up to look into this question. R. J. Baker recommended that the

whole matter of student participation should be referred to Faculty Council.

The Chancellor requested that it be recorded in the minutes that this

matter will be referred to Faculty Council.

3C.

Regulation regarding Simon Fraser University Student Residences

It was recommended by A. E. Branca that the words "who, without

lawful excuse," be inserted after the word "student" in the regulation

proposed by the Faculty Council.

Moved by K. E. Rieckhoff, seconded by A. B. Cunningham,

"that the regulation, as amended by A. E. Branca, be

adopted"

Moved by M. Bawtree, seconded by D. H. Sullivan,

"that the word "student" in the regulation be changed

to "member of the University"

CARRIED

The Chairman requested the members to vote on the following

amended motion:

"Any member of the University who, without lawful excuse,

is found in, or attempting to enter any of the non-public,

areas of a University residence other than his or her own

residence, will be subject to immediate suspension from

the University."

CARRIED (13 for, 7 opposed)

The Chancellor recommended that a statement be printed in the

calendar to protect the University from legal suits and stated that at

UBC students sign that they will obey the rules of the University.

He recommended that such a procedure be instituted at Simon Fraser,

possibly by printing such a statement on the application forms for the

students' signatures. It was agreed that this question be referred to

Faculty Council and then referred back to Senate.

3D.

Observers at Senate Meetings

Moved by D. H. Sullivan, seconded by T. H. Brose

"that meetings of Senate be open to any member of the

University community who provides sufficient reason:

the President to decide upon which such requests should

be granted"

MOTION LOST

Moved by R. J. Baker, secondd by W. M. Hamilton

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'that the lnfoimation Officer be invited to attend

Senate meetings at the descretion of the Chairman"

CARRIED

During the discussion it was pointed out that copies of Senate

minutes were available for persual by faculty in the Library and in the

office of the Registrar.

Moved by T. H. Brose, seconded by R. J. Baker

"that copies of Senate minutes be made available in

faculty department offices."

CARRIED

3E.

Expiry Dates for Terms of Senators

The Registrar reported briefly on the reasons for his recommenda-

tion on the paper he had submitted on this question.

• Moved by the Chancellor, seconded by J. F. Ellis

"that the recommendation submitted by the Registrar

on the expiry dates for terms of Senators be accepted"

SCARRIED

3F.

Service for Admission to Colleges & Universities (S.A.C.TJ.)

At the request of the Chairman, R. J. Baker outlined the back-

ground leading up to the formation of the S.A.C.U.

In the ensuing discussion it was pointed out that there were two

important reasons for supporting the recommendation of the Registrar:

the University would have some influence on the policy of the ser'ice

and since other provinces will discontinue provincial examinations, this

University will be forced to rely on the examinations set by the service.

Moved by the Chancellor, seconded by C. D. Nelson

"that the recommendation of the Registrar for

membership in the S.A.C.U., as outlined in his

Paper 3 F, be approved"

CARRIED

The Chairman announced that the next meeting of Senate would be

held on Monday, October 3rd, at 1:30 PM.

The meeting adjourned at 4:50 PM.

D. P. Robertson

Secretary