SYNOPSIS

?

.Lf

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i'ronosai for an Arts Protrain - Facult y

of Arts

One of the most persistant complaints from facult:y and students

heard at Simon Fraser is the absence of bold and imaginative curricular

innovation outside the vertical departmental structures and the tutorial

system. In order to correct this situation, the Faculty of

Arts

proposes

a program which would have the following objectives

1.

To permit the offering for credit to undergraduate students

of experimental, imaginative, co-operative, and/or inter-

disciplinary courses not easily possible within the present

departmental structure.

2.

To permit courses to be offered for credit of interest to

undergraduate students upon student demand which do not

ordinarily fall within the curricula of departments as

they at the moment conceive them.

3.

To provide a mechanism for the continual testing of the

viability of existing departmental course offerings, and,

indeed, of the existing grouping of departments.

The proposed program will be administered under the direct

.ty of the Dean of Arts. The Steering Committee, acting as a

lum committee for the program, will operate under the following

Igroundrules

.

a Ut bar i

cur r Ici

genera

1.

Any course which a faculty member is willing and prepared

to teach may be offered on a one- ? shot basis, providing

credit granted does not exceed three credits for lower

level courses and fivefor upper level courses. The

Committee must ensure that the course would not normally

be a departmental offering.

2. For a course to be re-offered, the Committee must see

evidence (either through past enrollment or student

petition) of genuine student interest, and of continued

faculty availability.

3.

Any group of interested students (in excess of 10) may

petition the Committee that a course of their desire be

presented in the program although an existing faculty

member to teach

the

course might not be available. It

will be the Committees responsibility to attempt to find

a faculty member to teach the course, either by obtaining

release of his time from departmental obligations or by

any other means possible.

...2

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Faculty members for the Arts Program will be made available

in one I bf the following ways

1.

Voluntary effort on the part of an individual faculty

member in excess of his normal departmental work load.

2.

The obtaining of release time for members of departments,

either (a) by voluntary contribution of faculty member's

time by departments, or (b) by reimbursing departments

for time hired.

3.

Hiring visiting professors or outside sessional lecturers

with funds at the disposal of the program.

.

.

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August 27, 1970

fig

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Arts Program - Faculty of Arts

Issues and/or Comments Raised by the Academic Planning Committee

1.

Should not departments have to give_usome of their lower

level re-rcuisities in order to provide room for those

courses proposed under the Arts Pram? In other words,

if departments were willing to give up some of their lower

level pre-requisites, it would appear on the surface that

it would be possible to introduce the new courses proposed

without the expenditure of any additional monies. Dean

Sullivan responded that indeed it would be possible to do

so, but in order to be effectiv, it would require that

some constraints be imposed on departments so that they do

not simply substitute other disciplinary courses for those

that they were currently offering.

2.

Will the offering of such courses lead to students taking

them because it will be easier to obtain good grades?

Because it will be offered with a one time commitment only,

it was donsider6d doubtful that the individuals who

developed the course and requested permission to offer it

would want to see it rejected for subsequent consideration

because it earned the reputation as a course in

which

to get

an easy grade.

3.

Why doesa program have to be solely in the Faculty of

Arts as

•

opposed to being distributed throughout the

University? Dean Sul? 'van responded that the program does

not have to be in the Faculty of Arts and that over the

long term it is proposed that it be put under the respon-

sibility of the Vice-President, Academic or the Vice-

President for University and Community Services. It is

proposed that initially it be placed under the Faculty

of-Arts in order to get the program under way and to

provide some opportunity of assessment before it is

expanded throughout the University.

4.

Will it be possible for other faculty to bring cross-

faculty proposals to the Facult y

of Arts for consideration

as a course to be offered under theArts Program?

Dean Sullivan indicated that this would be possible.

5.

With regard to item 4, the Committee felt that if cross-

faculty proposals are going to be considered, the

Advisory Committee to the Dean ought to be expanded to

include individuals from the' other faculties as well as

.

• .2

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thdse strictly from the Faculty of Arts.

6.

Should there be constraints imposed upon the number of

courses of Ifcred under this _program and the number of

such courses that an individual. student can take as part

of hi.s degree program? It

was

recommended by the Committee

that such constraints be imposed and that these issues he

resolved by the Steering Committee in conjunction with the

Dean of Arts and the Vice-President, Academic.

7.

The program proposes that a pass-fail grading system be

adopted with regard to certain of the courses to be of-

fered under this program. Since a pass-fail grading

system has not been approved by Senate, the Committee

recommends that Senate give consideration to such a

proposal.

August!27, 1970

fig

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Proposal for an

Arts

Program

Faculty of Arts

J. N. Bumsted

March 4, 1970

BackgIgund

One of the most persistent complaints from faculty and students

heard it Simon Fraser is the absence of

bold

and imaginative

curricular innovation outside the vertical departmental structures

and the tutorial system. A category of teaching offerings

outside departmental programs (which are basically professionally

oriented) was at the founding of the university intended, in the

General Education courses offered without credit to interested

students. This program foundered over lack of student interest

and lack of facult

y interest as well, the two probably directly

related. Since the opening of the university, the general

direction of curricular movement, particularly in the Arts

faculty

I

has been away from concepts of general education

?

The

university administration has recognized the dimensions of the

problem, and has discussed recently the implementation of a now

General' Studies program or Faculty on a university-wide basis.

The best of intentions from above will founder in the face of

great difficulties in promulgating and implementing such a

broad university-wide program, however, given the general

• constraints prevailing at this university on such a level. The

university General Studies program, even if brought into being,

will face a good deal of opposition and,-ihertia, and probably

n

cannot be brought into operation with ay rapidity. On the

Faculty level, particularly in the Faculty of Arts, meaningful

implementation may be more possible and much sooner, since

there exists a good deal of sympathy within the Faculty for

some such program. Such a program, brought into operation with

all possible speed, could serve as a pilot program for university-

wide rd

' form and change, and could ultimately be merged into

a general program if such came into existence:11igh_level

administrative discussion of a university-wide program cannot

he employed as an argument against the implementation of a

faculty program of curricular experimentation in the areas of

interdi.sciplinary and genera]. education, Since it ppcars very

doubtful that the university program has generated any qrass-

roots support and it is clear that it faces complex political

c1ifficiiltic.

Obiectives ?

-

The objectives of the following

proposed

..

Arts Program in the

Faculty of Arts at Simon Fraser University are:

1.

To permit the offering for credit to undergraduate students

. ?

of experimental, imaginative, co-operative, and/or

interdisciplinary courses not easily possible within the

present departmental structure.

2.

To permit coursen to be offered for cred.i t oC iiit"rest to

und

e

r

graduate StUduI)tS upon stuaenL emnd which do not

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ordinarilY fall within the curricula of departments as

thevi at the moment conceive them.

3.

To ermit faculty members to teach

courses

which do not

read i

ly fall within the teaching programs of their

respective departments. Many faculty

.

members have expertise

or

'.

Interests outside their own areas of specialization

which are currently being suppressed rather than encouraged.

4.

To provide a mechanism for the continual testing of the

viailitY f existing departmental course offerings and,

inded, of the existing grouping of departments. Given

?

•

?

thepreSeflt knowledge explosion, it may well be that

alternative divisions to those enshrined in our departments

?

• ?

mayprOVe more meaningful in the long run, and evidence

froT the Arts program, its

SUCCOSSOS

and failures, should

prove useful here.

5.

To provide concrete evidence to faculty, students, and

the outside world (both within 'and without the university'

community), that Simon Fraser's loudly proclaimed boast

• ?

abot experimentatio

n

and innovation i something more

•

?

than self-delusion.

Administration

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The Artls Program will be administered under the direct authority

of the Dean of Arts. The individual immediately responsible

to the Dean will be an Assistant to the Dean, who will be

responsihle for supervising administrative details and who will

chair al steering committee composed of one representative

from te undergraduate curriculum committee of each department

in

the Faculty, chosen by whatever means the department agrees

upon. The steering committee's major responsibility will be to

act as a curricUlU1 committee for the program, operating under

the following general ground rules:

1. Any course which a faculty member is willing and prepared

to teach may be of feted on a one-shot basis, providing

credit granted does not exceed 3 credits for lower level

courses and

5

for upper level courses. The committee'S

repponsihilitY is to ensure that the course is fully

articulated before permitting it to he scheduled;

?

.C.,

erbr must

prOVldO

evidence that he has thought

through the administrative and pedagoâl

i 1catl3ñ

3

hi proposal and has something more than a sexy title in mind.

The committee must also determine the faculty teachingload

value of each course on its merits, and must ascertain that

ti

l

e course would not normally be

(

-j departmental offering.

2 • For a course to be reoffered, the committee must

SOC

evidence (either through past enrolment or student petition)

of genuine student interest, and of continued faculty

aailabi1ity.

3.

?

?

group of interested

?

tudent ?

(in excess of 0) may

?

Petition the committee that a

COUIS& OL tU.1

design be

pr .

?

in the proy:aln although an cx1tini tThcui ty

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-3-

not be available.

?

It will

member to teach the course may

to attempt to find a

be ?

the committee's responsibilitY

either by 0btaifling

facultY member to teach the course,

department

al

Obligations or by

.

reeaSe of his

?

time ?

from

an

?

other means possible.

faculty members

?

for

?

the arts program will be made

In genral

availalC

?

in the

?

following ways:

the part of an individu

al

?

faculty

voluntary effort

Ofl

1.

?

normal departmental work

?

load.

If

?

his

member

?

in

CXCCSS

o

and only in the most extreme

This

?

should be used

?

sparingly,

capes.

released time for members of departments,

2.

?

The obtainin

g

of

of ?

faculty members'

either

?

(a) ?

by voluntary contribution

(b) ?

by reimbursi

ng departments

?

for

time by departmentst

?

or

ti

I

me

?

released.

outside

?

sessional

?

lecturers

3.

?

U

?

ring visiting professors

?

or

disposal of

?

the program.

with funds at the

will come

?

to the program's

?

curriculum

Proposals ?

for ?

courses

therefore,

?

either

?

from

?

faculty members or

?

from

available

committee,

group

?

of

?

students,

?

and faculty members will be made

overloading,

?

departmental

for

?

teaching

?

these c ourses by voluntary

or outside hiring.

contribution,

?

departmental

?

tradeoff,

Fundi!nq

the earliest p

operational

?

at

?

ossible

roram

In order to make the program

1971) ?

the Faculty

?

of ?

rtS

time

?

(hopefull

y

?

as ?

soon as

?

summer,

?

,

of

?

$il0,00

?

for ?

the ?

first

requSts of

?

the University

?

the

?

sum

$10,00

0

of ?

this money will be

office ?

space:

?

office

threesome

?

of

?

operation.

(secretary,

usedfor

?

administrative purposes

be used by

?

the ?

steer ing

equiIrflCflts

?

etc.)

?

and ?

the ?

remainder

?

will

for

?

the prograU

?

in the ways outlined

comrntte

0

to obtain faculty

c1ministrat10

?

The ways

?

in which

in the

?

sect ?

under

he

?

reimburse

d ?

for ?

released

?

time

?

are many

?

and

in ?

qeflcralv

departments can

and can he worked out only

?

in ?

specific

?

cases.

for ?

S ?

assistant

varied,

however,

?

$100,000 provides

?

salary

?

equivalCnCS

approximatelY

?

50 hourS

proeSSOrsi

?

or ?

enough manpower

?

to mount

department

of ?

courses

?

in

?

each of

?

three

?

semesters.

faculty member

?

for ?

approV

?

courSS

?

in

the

?

equivalent of

?

a

?

full

in most ca

?

c<peCt

the

over

?

program

three ?

semesters

?

shoUld

replacement

?

for ?

c ?

full

?

faculty

reimbursement of

?

funds

?

to hire

?

a

cases,

?

reimbr.Lt ?

m

member ?

for ?

those

?

semesters.

?

In

?

some

tS

?

ratilr

?

than

take

?

the

?

form of

?

funds ?

to

?

teaching

?

assist

also

USC

?

itS ?

fundS

?

to

?

ire

fac1ty members.

?

The program may

h

?

as

?

a ?

film-mclkc)

?

or

visiting ?

or ?

resident

?

specialiStS,

?

suc

is

?

demand

?

for

?

courStS

?

which

?

could be

political

?

gadfly, ?

if

?

there

taukjht

?

by

?

such

?

individuals.

of ?

precIiCtifl9

?

the

?

subsequent cl

?

mands ?

wh

?

ch ?

the

ThrC

?

n no way

in ?

the

?

way ?

of ?

findi.n9 ,

?

except

?

to ?

U(Ut

prJram will make

s ?

1 ?

nd ?

1 ?

I:

q ?

nwule r

th ?

t

?

I f

?

i ?

becomes

?

cx tr enc

?

y

?

su ccc s

cOU15

?

to

faultY and

?

tude5t5

?

prefer ?

pon_dcparLfl

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departmental ones, the time has

p

robably come to rethink the

orgaiizati.on and philosophy of the Faculty.

Pro ci r a

in

The program itself will list its courses under the rubrics

of Arts 1000, 2000, 3000, and 4000, dependingon the level for

which the course is designed. (Note: The computers will have

possible

to haludle

duplication

four-digit

as

course

time

numbers

goes on

in

of

the

one-shot

p

rogram,

numbers.)

to prevent

The fculty member and/or proposer of the course, in consultation

with the steering committee, will assign credit (which may vary

from ne to five) , specify enrolment limits (from a minimum of

tentp an unlimited ceiling; it may be that some faculty members

wish to be innovative in the SFU context and offer large

lecture courses without tutorials) , and grading practices

(incljding pass/fail). No course should have

any

departmental

offering as a prerequisite, although the faculty member may

make clear that certain kinds of expertise (advanced statistics,

limber

l

muscles, etc.) will be expected of those enrolled. The

numbes 1000 to 4000 will be employed only to distinguish t)e

gener4l audience the course is designed to appeal to (elementary,

interthediate, advanced, super-s

p

ecialized) and the course

propoer may select his own numbering category. A sample

semester curriculum might look something like the following:

.

001 ?

Greek Tragedy

002 ?

The Medium of Journalism

003 ?

Pollution and the Environment

001 ?

Seminar in Architecture

002 ?

Oriental Art

003 ?

Urban Poverty

1

001 ?

Contemporary European Novel

002 ?

Canada and Latin-America

003 ?

The Rise aic1 Fall of the Roman Empire

001 ?

Autobiography

002 ?

Comparative Forms of Radio Programming

003 ?

Armenian Social and Intellectual Life

Arts

Arts

Arts

Arts

Arts

Arts

Arts

Arts

Arts

Arts

Arts

Arts

0

Other Proqrams

There is no other program of this nature currentl

y

in existence

in Canada, although aspects of programs at the University of

Lethbridge and the

Univ

ersity of Toronto might be worth investigating

in this regard

?

Fully articulated programs in the United States

?

are relatively common, and a report on one such program (The

Experimental College at Tufts University) is appended to this

proposal as appendix A.

?

Faculty members can uncloubl:ediy sucgest

?

other relevant American experiences, but given the 1.)rescnt

climate of opinion in Canada, probably shoulcin t

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MF'iORt. i)1J4

To: All Faculty

?

From: Neville J. Lincoln

Subject: Proposed An)rnmme ? Date: March 12th, 1970.

A

I

f ew days ago you received an abstract of Dr. J. Bumatead's

proposal for an Arts Programme in the Faculty of Arts. As mentioned in

Dr. Bmscad's memo, the full programme is available for reference in my

office., 1)r. Buostead has

now asked me to contact all faculty members and

ask them the following question:

"If external funding becomes available and subject to your depart

-

ment being able to release you for the required number of hours,

whit interdisciplinary courses would you like to offer under this

net7 arts programme if approved?"

It goes without saying that you will he requIred to present some proof

of your clompetence In

the

area before being allowed to put on the course.

Would you please complete the form below and return it to Hilary Jones.

Neville J, Lincoln

• ?

NJL/ij ?

I ?

A

1__

To....................................Bumsted

?

From........

P

.................................................. ?

.

p..

Ipd.

r.

?

....

Subject.............5)b0.Lme

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................................................

..

.

Date..........P.

Scvcral members of this Department have responded

to

the enclosed

memo whijcli I sent out to our faculty at your request. I enclose their

lists of courses they would be prepared to teach.

Neville. J. Lincoln,

NJ L/iihj

?

Chairman, D1L,

Enc

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- - *_*_.i__

LL.

n11:

?

Ll"-

tlll I

TITLE

OF

COURSE S).

?

S14c

NMIE: ?

\ 1

i

i

nrrT

Z,

I

jcOCc

TITLE OF COURSE(S): iL4nr of i1PS1

to

-

Piano

Li.trfttUre

Thory (iJarmop and. CounterPOirt)

w

•

?

TITLE

NAME:

?

OF COURSE(S):

IV, L

i

14

A/ C.. 0

?

Al

_______

TITLE OF COURSE(S):

-7

L/

/(

?

1((C/R&

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..

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SIMON FRASER UNIVERSITY

.

DEPARTMENT OP MODERN LANGUAGES

?

flUPNARY 2, BRITISH COLUM RIA

TtfqI:ouc 2.91-3111 Area eale 601

Dr. J. M, Bumsted,

?

S

Assistant to the Dean,

S.F.U. ?

S

Dear Dr. Buinsted:

This is in answer to your memorandum of

9

March re ?

the new Arts proposal.

?

SO

I find little in this to suggest that I can support

it, and until I see evidence that there is a serious effort to

restore standards in our present progranme commensurate with

what I consider to be those of a university, I shall not support such

proposa].s. My fear is that these may constitute yet another

loop-hole for the vague, the non-specific, the non-scientific

(in the broader sense of the term).

Furthermore, I shall not support such proposals

until these have been openly and freely debated by Faculty,

because it is on the basis of debate that decisions of this kind

required here can he made.

Yours sincerely,

GIB-H:dw

G. L. Bursill-Hall,

Professor ?

•

'.•,O• ?

d

23

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SiMON FRASER UNiVERSITY

D H. Sullivan, Dean

.............

. ?

.....

?

. ?

... ?

. ?

.........................................................................................

Department

Subject.. 9 ?

....

?

. ... .. .

April lst, 1970.

m

Programe ?

.Date

At a recent meeting of the Department of History a

motion "hat this

department endorses the proposed

new arts

prograrnrie and urges its speedy

implementation "was passed by a

vote of19 to

2

with 1 abstention. ?

. ?

. ?

. ?

.

... ?

...... ?

.

IMwf ? . ... ?

. ?

.

of Ar

0

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SIMON FRASEEL UNIVERSITY

M E

iJOR

A

D

U

M

.

To

to l

•'.•

?

i!,t(d Sec 1 Asit t•Frorn

?

Philippa bison

i' Uen of' Ai'ts .

?

LInderrfl.d nate Currlc'.dnm Co:r. ttee

Dcprtment of n

r

1i h.

Subject..............

Arts1

P r or;rm

meP aJ

_-

. ?

0

?

.

y otl 1

,

1

memor

rdum

ri

of March 9, 1.97 0

and attached abstract (both of.

whir.h were circulated. to

Fac1ty

members individnally) , toether with

YO

f March 1j, 1970

were discussed at a

meet

iiir

of the inerraduate C rricnlum Committee of the Department of

:nr1ish jj

?

meeting on ilarch 18, 1970

I

have

been asked to tell you that this

cornniittee is most interestec

in the P

?

osal and in your invitation to comment0

?

Members wish to do

this

hut the; wish to formulated their opinion into a statement to come

to you frcm the Committee rather than from individual members

?

Comments?

on your ?'oposa1 are now being discussed and

it is hoped

that there will

shortly h something on paper to forward. to you.

You

l

r

deadline of April

5,

197

0

has been

noted.

-:

C'

. ?

I \

-

. ?

.

.. ?

.., ? t•.

-

?

.

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• ?

('c- ?

-f

•

?

1'7)

TO:: Dr. J. N. Bumscd.

?

I

Assistant to the Dean of Arts.

?

-

FROM: Members of the Undergraduate Curriculum

Committee ?

Department of

En:;lish.

(sec end of document for names of members)

•

?

SUBJECT:

1.

?

?

The following response to Dr. Bumsted's request for?

comnentson "Arts Programme Proposal" represents a synthesis

of I

ppinions of the named members of the Undergraduate

Curriculum Committee

s

Department of English, and should

not be construed as the opinion of the

'

committee as a whole

nor as reflecting opinion of the department.

?

As of today,?

there has been no opportunity for discussion of the proposal

in department meeting.

5

2.

?

?

Although our response is in the nature of a counter-

proposal we have chosen to brief our response

s

rather than

present a fully developed and detailed counter-programme

for several reasons

0 ?

Firsts we wish to meet Dr. Bumsted1s

reqest that responses be in hi.s hands by April

5. ?

Second,

while we are enthusiastic about the idea of innovation but

in fundamental disagreement with the conceptualization of

innovation reflected in the proposal

s

we therefore wish to

identify an immediate position In regard to the proposal.

• ?

Third we have read proposals for innovation in curriculum

drifted within this Faculty which do reflect our understanding

of innovation, and

which

can be adapted to the need:; of both

5 ?

faclty and students without creating the quasi.departnienta

•

structure outlined in the proposal.

?

In our view s

the

proposal is something of a redundancy.

?

We believe that

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•

?

the sound, practical, dctaii.ed and interesting propocals

alrady in existence prior to. circulation of the "Arts

Projramrne Propsai" should receive first consideration, in

terris of eligibility for financial support,. if Arts is really

serious about fostering innovation."

te wish to resjond affirmatively to the invitation to

think in terms of fundamental changes to Arts curricula, but we

aisb

wish to state a conviction that experimentalism in curricula

neither at the level of funding quasidepartmentalism,

nor at the level of funding actualdepartmefltS, but at a level of

support for individual faculty

,

member and individual student,

where experimentalism can be a process which blends guidance,

investigation, interesting and absorbing work, and deepening

mutual self-awareness, into a truly educative experience.

30

?

Our response, therefore, takes the form of some counterpropos

A ?

That academic planning for innovation in Arts curricula

S

---

take ?

anc, ?

p

?

LOW S

Arts Comial.ttec on interdisciplinary

1

Study, a repo

r

t wjti . econ

C

1LLO?-6o

2 ?

an

proposal

inac cci

by

en

PrJe

t

?

iM'

.

?

copi,'0r

nished

prerequisites, 1965

- -'

rind distribute these proposals for faculty consideration and comme

B ?

That the Faculty of Arts authorize for a BA degree, credit

fdr a

499

course conceived and implemented by any

,

department in

on the model of the B.S.F.

499

course offered in

tihe Faculty of Education.

Such a course to adapt the principle of one trimesters

---

-3

-

work by one student, or a group of students, to the

requirements of the discipline of the department concerned.

C. ?

That the Faculty of Arts authorize credit for an

equivalent course in lower division, i.e. 299.

That the Faculty of Arts recognize the principle, and

institute appropriate administrative procedures, for

a "general" or "open" degree in Arts, for which the

Individual student is required to earn

120

credits in

courses of his own selection, the sole requirements being:

a0

?

First 60 credits be in 100 and 200 courses0

b.

?

Second 60 credits be in courses numbered

300 and above.

co

?

Student consult a Faculty adviser once a month.

That 90 of the 120 credits be earned within

o ?

Arts.

e.

?

Any shift to a regular programme must tate

place before 60 credits have been earned.?

f0 ?

A shift to a regular programme will necessitate

completion of all requirements of that programme.

E0

?

That steps toward making genuine experimentalism possible

- ?

can be taken by implementing a system of "released time"

• ?

for faculty involved with individualized student programmes.

•

F.i That Honours Programmes, per se, he abolished, and that

Honours degrees be awarded solely on the basis of grade

point and graduating essay0

IT

Phi1ippt Poison

Chairman, Undergraduate

Curriculum Committee

R. D. Ca1ihan

?

Clark Cook

Member, Undergraduate

?

Member, U ndergracl:uatc Curriculum

Cu'riculum Committee

?

Committee

Barbara Sciillinger

?

J. Zaslovep

Member, Uncergraduate Curriculum ConhritLC-

M(1KI' 1-1f

---

a ?

I

— ?

I.J. .,

Michael Rust

Student representative

Undergraduate Curriculum

Committee

.

M. Griffin

Student; rcprsentatiVe.

• ?

U ndc )-;raW1atp Curriculum

Con-LmietCcO

J. Fletcher

I

EtUdcflt

rcpIlCFJCfltatiVC

• . Undergraduat

e

Curriculum

Committee0

Rathwell

6tudont apreentative;

Undergraduate Curriculum

Committee

faculty for' comments

and reaction prior to

forwarding the proposal

(available from your departmental

chairman) to the University Academic

Planning Commit

00

ay I have comments in writing by

5

April, 1970 please?

.

?

H ?

S ?

•••

(fr7

?

4TC

'7//It

---

SIMON FRASER UMVE

?

RSIIT

Y

?

Tn

?

All Mombors, Fculty of Arts

?

From ...... J.M..Bum

5tOd.

?

Assistant to the Dean.

Sub

j

ect

Arts Programme Proposal

?

.

?

Date.......

?

1970 ?

.

Enclosod ploae find an abstract of a proposed now Arts

Programme

for the Faculty of Arts, which

I am circulating to the

faculty for

comments and reaction prior to forwarding the proposal

(availablo

froi your departmental chairman) to the University Academic

Planning Committee.

May I have

comments

in writing by

5

April,

1970

please?

eel

(,74

.

?

a-fr(--

ci

d

J ?

2L2 a

4l

t

•

?

9•

J

}

f

/

?

4AL

a-

d &

?

c

fr

9

a ci

o

C

1

.91

1ru,

?

1/1

76-

'io ;..

---

.. ,.

eli ?

er.

.

;e c

?

ut ?

' c

t (St ?

to v

t:

!

?

we ?

lOVO ?

cor/enec ?

thin sc;nion

1::

?

the

?

ic:::. ?

t.htt: ?

itero ?

comi e. ?

viii. ?

he

?

alert

TCt rL:;:1 ?

tar ?

tic

choice ol ?

room, ?

incidentally

?

i.ecne

,hisis one ot

?

ti;e feti rooms in which we can tape record easily and

y e ?

t:i;;cr'iDing ?

tc.:

?

ons or this nenni.on which wii be -

the tr'unscritt on w.i.L ic ty

p ed un ervi will ic node

?

veilaLle

to

t1nt University Ac.iumic Planning Conmittcà as part of tic subm.nsicrn;

t

It t

eo ?

or t ?

on t ;tcsc new programmes

tfesnor

?

hip ?

is here ltr;nen t imp

?

the hiddic Lost//,irican

?

tur ics

Professor Cor'ison iv rcucscnt 1np tne Arcnavoiopy

?

ro5nsa1

fror cusor (iirc1a

?

it;

re p resenting, ?

.1.

?

none, ?

tme Latin American Stuc ics

prono:;aI ?

and tic Chairman will, as long as no one comnlains too loudly,

steak to tIc Arts Programme Pronosal so long as that doesm' t too con-

fuc tic meeting.

?

Let me soy that the only sort: o

?

grounc rules I

have in that ?

I'll'

?

sort of li):ct to

p revent

p

eonle from

?

u1ng iengtiy

unbechos on the ground that if they want to make lcsithy s

p

eeches they

can make written submissions.

?

The point I would hoe here would he

one of dialogue rather than one of long oral statements.

?

T.;ouid

ai;o anpreciate it if meonie would identify themselves before speaking

since otherwise the transcription of the tape becomes virtually mean-

ingless.

?

And, with those few sort of general ground rules in mind; that

is to say:

?

no long speeches, and prior identification of sneakers if

at all rossible

?

11 declare this hearing open and hear from anyone who

•

wihes to say anything.

How long is a long speech?

Two minutes; more than two minutes.

ALbS3h:

have one cuestion before we start on an

y

' of these articles.

tuese - are any of these mutuaily contrautctory in a sense

:50t

ugiversity gt'ants money ror some of them, they are most 1set.

y

to grant

r.tdney for others?

Prhans I should say a few words about that, at least as I understand

ise nroceuurcs.

?

Te procedures that tney have set up is tnat nor new

niogratn:es the Senate has constructed a University AcademIc

iIamnisp

Cnmittce. ?

hew programme oroposals will go to the Academic

- PI an- ,

Committee where tnetr acacemc merits are discusseu and are t::en

cQ:vac:tGcd to Senate for implementation on the basis of acasemic ::e:'t.

,:c! Senate then accepts tie programmes on these merits and nemb.

?

:.L ?

ro-

Lack to the Academic Planning Committee for funding on

?

......

Fanmes

o; ?

nriority. ?

We have absolutely no idea now much rr.one

?

is avaia_

or rev programmes al titoui

?

new programme money is

tttctrt

from ?

u ?

-

•;.:.y ?

for ?

ordinary ?

o p

era t.itig ?

e>:wcnnCs .

?

I ?

gatner

?

the ?

vy ?

::.L: ?

ra ?

.......

work is that these proposals as wail as oters tram

c; ?

bducaton and

?

the Facult y

oi ?

Science and otner

pro p

cs11

5

?

:ct'

:. . ?

r', w1cn are intertaculty

?

nature, will all go ic:cr.a

•

university Acdciemic Planning

?

oittee and- be discussee on tbes:

gobefore Senate, tmen sent to this committee again :at

rtin;'s in terms of the su:; of money that you set as

?

for zhsc

nogram::es whatever that sum hampens to Le

?

Does that answer vaur

qestion a little?

/:.

---

'sch.

.

I

'ti

ISke to it.

?

(UOtjOil

o

?

d

tit I ?

tcj

ask the

C>.

tent to w1w..n !\ o:id±:: A to the Arts Piogrerninc Pro

p

osal is ritenc:ou

W scwvc as some thing lJe

a

mood of what rniç'lit be

etaLI!shcd

here?

t 15

ot.itciied to >arvc

TI 3 IlTOdel cit

ell. it ?

simnly an illutce-

:on oh who t one Uiiversi. ty has done rather thena model. fne penerel

:1

md is tuet any oronosal has. to

10

geared to li;r.on hroser

Jul vers I ty end to tic nerticular probens which

rirCi

raced bore , but at

be same t line I i;hougiit it would uc useful is at least one I usc tinning

)rogramme were included an an illustration of the sort of t",iincilsthat

inc micht nut into

effect.

I. have several questions. (inc is ( this nay take more than twO minutes

Dut

they are questions I believe in. One is wuat is the PCl3tO5C:iiP

between - wnat is implemented or p roposed in t:is thin and the garier'al

eciucnit ion courses which now esit s

, tflo window courses , nesnec by Senate

and tee no-coiled interdisciplinary programmes that are being stuaiea

by some committee, which ewuaren tly hasn't met in a

y

ear and a half

1 'd like to know whet sort of integration of these iceas, which seen to

me to ne the same ideas fundamentall y

, has been attemnted? Tha-,'L;

one.

Two - is it ziot ore-mature to talk about administration and mounting of

Intorusci

p

linar courses w;ien we have never mac a csscuss.on on: 1.

wntner we want interuisciplinary courses ;on2. want are lnteralscloJ.:nary

courses? on 3. sow are nterdiscipinary courses on

p

rogrammes acn:nisterea

This seems to orcsuppose some answers to these questions or the iolLed

'

meaning of interdiscnary there is that a meaning different that I

have encountered. Three - is there not in the introduction

0

e

p ro p

osal a contradiction which starts

of-I f: taLKing asout, as so many namers

do, numerous requests and com p

laints about the lack ofX or Y ass then

goes on to say that the general education courses are floundering because

of the lack of interest of the same people whom these recuests are

attriauteu to in tne rirst sentence. bourts or

r

15th tse :stent pnlioso?nv

of SUM,) 1" ,

and Qencanci I

demands

thsnk

some crt1cal e>:arninat:.on. Tna: :s,

is a University a market place for supply and demand? how do you oscrationa-

line student demands? Does that mean ten si:udents sign a thins, and we

give a course? What happened to the Academic standards? Cause these

are other things that I think should be looked at. And lsti y

, after

looking

at the Tufts proposal in the calendar, these courses are cuite

cirferent. As one might, wIts all clue resDect, tuese courses

• 1 ?

ney

are bold and ?

imginative

a

and interdisciplinary, I ("lon't see how they are,

because the contemoorarv Luropcan Novel is a standard course in any

i)Cpclr tnent, (aceS Tragedy . . . . these courses at .u:ts:5

hoi.0 1nnovatons, tucy

InVOLVe things lkc audi t;

ng three

COSPSCS CnG

getting credit for one of them - formal credit for one of then. They

involve created workshops, they also involve, not being administered n

the Dean's Office but having a committee or ten - tive racuaty at>: :sve

atucents which is determining the curriculum in this progi'ammse. So

looking at the sample of courses presented, I can see no difference he-

tween these courses and the courses currently being proposea anc uetrg

S

13

---

/3

:con t

o

?

rcii ?

illthe

?

cnci'al ?

eucjt.Lcn ?

oroia:rn)c ?

Sumner

?

ore; ?

arc: ?

two

i_ ?

prohrmmc

?

ía fu need

?

.ud

?

ji'Oved. ?

This calis

?

or noose ).

flF

a ?

::ied ?

thou:•;e i:d ?

(bile

ru ,

?

wc: ?

I.

?

eve ?

no oLai ect ion ?

to

?

spene ir

i0i ,

?

1

?

proV1:fl1c WLLCb

?

is

?

not

sj')CC.i

tied •

?

which is

?

not hold or

?

arvinetive

or li:terdincipiiniry in any ueiiae

?

.

And looking around ?

the University

I can see ;iany a reas where that nundred thousand dollars couid well

he a signd rether than to this proposal

hhat of that srics oS questions would you l

i ke answered?

All of them, all of them I'd like antn:ei'n

?

to. ?

I don't think there

ttet

been any, ?

in the first place,

?

I don't think there's been any a

?

mo

to look at these or frame this proposal within the current structure

is, the general education courses which are precisely what these

courses are.

cli let me strt off by saying that the principle difference between

thesc and existing general education courses is that these courses

would be for credit ?

that's a significant difference between these,

i)etueen these courses and existing general education courses.

?

I think

y

ou'll agree that one of the problems with existing general eeucaton

churses is that they are not for credit and it

Seems

to me tniit is a

:arly significant difference.

?

To take - re-ferring to triG last cuestor -

you know, what you're doing is saying that I wasn't very imaginative

II didn' t know it was your proposal or I would have used more respect.

As long as it wasn't less.

?

I drafted the proposal and was mrobabl'z not

imCglmacive as 1 snoule have L)eer

?

ifl setting. rorta ;incs or courses

that could be offered within it.

?

I just took some of toe sansles trot' c

on there. because I

?

-

?

n no sense cari

y ou say, ?

15

,..hat cirectori

manners will move in terms of ini7lovaz1on, I hope tney.wcule ne iSSOVOtlYC,

Ldt me point out however that the one thingwe can saw about those

?

2

smnle courses is that they offer whole part courses that were

creo:inr

a cif.biculty to be offered within existing de

p

artments bccause or tre

niture or existing departments.

?

As to the intcrcbiscl p

llnar

?

asrec:s,

dn' t think a course has to be interdisci.nlinary to be innovative or

ibaginative. ?

it seems to .

me within the Simon Fraser context, for •::•:amn1a,

ti-.at

a first rate - let's say a sunern lecturer woo wants

to ooera:a a

lacture course with no tutorials is being boldly imaginative and

ir:1cVizi''G,

within •

the Simon Fraser context.

?

Because the assumntiom aiwa'rs is that

every course has to have a tutorial attacnee to

it

of one or twc:'.cursin

4iration. ?

I don't think that you can - tne :ufts nr000sa±, as

?

rev

Is

onl y

an illustration of sort of thing I know one University has

done

rather than a model for our own proposal.

?

As far as the snecific

nature

o

?

those 12

four thousand courses which are being pro-

p osed or which I

have written in, they're just things that came off the top of my :red and

• /4

---

/q

0

jerta

Ln j .y

YOU

'v e inch ca Led the ha nkrui tcy purhapN

is •.,, ?

efforts

cone ?

at. Ming J'.Lna Live and innovative - I didn'

t

really intend then to 1.e

that an

y

way. they are simply illustrative of kinds o courses or titles

of coursed which might be included.

is

to the question oF discussion

- general discussion of thin kind of propoza.]. - I think there has L

een

a

i

raiv 3slOUflt

O.t

that in

VC PIOUS

(1rtCP5. Perhaps not involved in

your

department: but it ' s been involved in others.

MEAN: ?

out my final question

iS

what is the pur p

ose of this programme. If

wnt to Ave credit for general education courses, that doesn't reuiro

a 1

hundred thousand dollars and it doesn't renuire administrative structure.

ht these are not necessarily education courses.

QNSYMN:

?

That's what I'm asking you, how do they differ from the general

education courses?

The purpose of this

p ro p

osal - the Arts Programme Proposal - is to

pj

ovidc a vehicle for courses welch cannot be, for one reason or another,

At on within the existing departmental structure.

?

Courses that don't

fit into departments in terms or their existing,priorities; courses

which simply don't have a place in the faculty as the Arts courses for

example do not, because we don't happen to have a Fine Arts Department.

This is an opportunity to also give Arts students and others interested

a ?

well as Arts students at the University - an opportunity to take courses

•

which 1-it in a broad rubric under the Faculty or Arts, nut for one reason

or another, given the de

p

artmental nature of the curriculum that is in

this faculty, are not being offered or cannot be offered.

At teat's my question. ?

c-/by can't Greek Tragedy be orrerea as a genera

education course?

?

Architecture, the modern contemporary European

see

no

reason that it can't be offered within a vehicle amnroveu

Sinate and tunucu now rather than proliferating the same sort or nrcsrannes

every week in the university as a result or coffee house talk

Cr

some-

or lunch talk and starting all these programmes, wsicr. co ::ot differ

Oam each other. ?

I's like to know what reason aside from the crec::, :-:sc::

An be changed, that everything you said can't be cone within the rrane:-:cr::

of the general education courses?

511

my answer to that would be why hasn't it been?

h cause no one's proposed that it be.

here's the proposal. ?

All right

V

etter answer is that there's been no interest as you have just said. -

i:- ?

faculty and students are not interested in these courses cr in mount-

the proZrammc.

5:h..:

POWs not in that context they're not.

?

If you find from this nrc-rosa

•

comes a rejuvenation of the general education courses v:t:'eu this 4niversizy

I iwoulO count that a considerable gain on whether or not this proposal gets

adopted.

/

---

O ./5

t ?

WK to lJon with We :heptcisrfl of ProJsor

Burstuin on this matter.

TD:

a

kind of

?

big lie

t ha t

circulates

around, mostly it

?

has its source

studeet i

?

ulcais,

?

I ?

think, to the ci f ect that the

curr

iculum in

di:wnf'.

froxen urid

?

set and en

?

blis1ied arid change dos' t occur and

?

no

m'c

L

tv much

In the

?

though, not only In

t his University but any other

on.

?

examination

University i:iiat I've been acquainted with, of the University catalogue,

I

University

catalogue over a series of years will show new courses constantly

being added.

?

In

the

catalogue just hot off the press, a day or two

for this Univcrsty, my own departitien t alone offers h new courses which

nonci't been offered before and 1 would he willing to bet a dollar to a

hole in a doughnut that if

y

ou examine that catalogue in

connection

with

catalogues or previous years you'll find a similar case is other demert-

merits - new courses are constantly being offered.

?

As for the courses which

have here before us in this Tuft

?

thing, they seem to divide into two

we

sorts: ?

perfectly respectable courses such as courses in the contemporary

European Novel, which can be added within the present framework, and

already exists in some department, and sheer junk, such as

for

probabl

example,

y

a course permitting some adolescent pimple to write his own

autobiography.

?

Yes there's a course here that somebody si5ed so to and

II

is writing his autobiography.

?

The courses divide fairly neatly into

that sort of thing.

?

Now the most intelligent discussion in this

whole

appendix of the Fuits programme, as this one by this char Carleton bailery

I think is rather an idealistic sort or chap, but at leasz he sees t:.as

who

as an incipient trend

?

towards the basic an education and an

culture

•

thing

and I certainly won't again say that that's desaranle;

out

if tsar's

way ?

can have it is,

?

if we

desirable then let's have it and the only

?

you

really want to establish some education in the basics of our culture, then

for Dog's sake give us a Classics Department that teaches Creek and

Roman and Latin languages, literature, history and philosophy.

?

because

that's the basic, those are the basics of culture and our civilization

let's ?

this hankering after courses in African drum han7lnj and

and

?

quit

Chinesearound

DnglJSh

?

here

gong

sentence.

in

clanging

this University

I'd

and

absolutely

the

by

other

characters

he

sorts

opposed

of

who

things

to this

can't

that

kind

even

are

or

being

write

thing.

proposed

as

As far as I can see your programme has only two purposes, presumably. One

of interdisciplina

r

y effort.

?

The other is

to introduce

Psych.

is to get some

sort

not usually available in departments.

?

Now with

regard

courses

to

where

the first

they

interdicsiplinarY

are

effort

I think my own o

p inion is

that

consider this alone that there are much Letter wa

y

s for intro-

you

ducing

?

just

a broad interdisciplinary orogranune, much broader than this, than

by introducing a separate department.

?

it could be for c:

.

:aspc, ?

involve

reducing prerequisites in departments and reducing thebarriers for stud=

now taking courses in the faculty inberween departments an

d

7:v1fl7 them

credit for it and perhaps even designating an accumulation of credit

with-

in different faculties and the different departments different!:.'; for

b.A, ?

interdisciplinary or something like that.

?

Such that this is

exam

p

le

formal recognition.

?

This could be a real ir.tcrdirciPlinorY pro-

getting

all de p

artments could contribute.

?

There as no reason why

gramme to which

t

-,a

t

couldn't be done

hUbSTND:

I ?

There are lots of reasons why it hasn't been.

'U

---

I

?

hiu

?

sy. b ' ?

rmu; ?

hut. ?

thero'n ?

no reason ?

why ?

it

?

cou1.dn'

t

?

he cIo:c;.

35

1' m not sure

who's

the

?

idealist here,

?

the person or neon].e who've made

a conur etc proposal or you who seek to oppose it by offering some

tcrnative, ?

which ....

tell you

?

this

? if 1 can go On just

3

minute - the

5eCOd

meet ?

intro-

c.iuc ?

new

COUrSeS ?

unusual courses.

?

I

?

like this ?

idea hut

?

1 ?

don't

?

tllflr

that it needs to bu done within the structure of a separate derartmonz.

think new courses can be Introduced within departments.

?

:artrrits

ought to broaden their curriculum.

?

Psychology, which we

ON

iz

C.:T.0

Of

the ?

most restricted

departments, in terms of the breadth of its offerings

But I think this would be the way to work.

?

Let's say

1OCCOC3O

the numler

Of

courses within departments K the administration would support zhip in

terms of the money which is involved we could

p

ut on courses like this

ithin de

p artments.

?

I think that there wouldn'

t

be much cnoc ?

.iom to

Qs,

?

I'll toll you what

t

like most about the programme and that is

it might be the nucleus and I think I mentioned thin before, and if

it

was

then I support it wholeheartedly,-I don't tnink it is really and 1 don't

hink it will ever ac, but it could be the nucleus for breaking nowa all

denart:centai. barriers - that is to nay getting rid of de

p artments and

this thing ex

p

anded and ciossom to the extent that you had a much

reatcr number of students, you know, in this particular denartment than

in any of the other departments pretty much as it is.

?

I wouldn'

t

mind

ccim ?

this at all; but i don't think that will ever ha

p es

?

I think that's a

r.isteke to do it that way.

?

So to get back to my original

p oint; ?

I think

W

the interdisciplinary effort is the primary consideration in this particular

i.tuation.

Cd.hFORD:

e

keep getting these proposals all the time; we've had the w:ncc: ncwrses

Psych

passed by Senate and died someplace; and the general education programme

died; and so on and I think we should get to the fundamental reason as so

what ?

,

why these things keep cropping up and dying.

?

And 1 Oink n'oa.',

In my opinion, the fundamental reason is that this University dcesn

T

s know

What it wants to do yet.

?

We don't know whether we want to have a j-g'eat

raUuate school; we don't know whether we want an undergraduate nroramme;

we don't know these kind of things and therefore these

?

proposals :-:eom

cropping up all the time.

?

It seems to be much more meanmgsul to asProacrI

this whole question would he to have Senate or the Board or whoever coos

t

hese things come to some kind

01

a conclusion as to what the University

is supposed to he.

?

and then, once we have decided this, then it will

Ouch

easier to do so, to do this kind of thing and maybe

y

ou won'

t

even

need this anymore, we'll save decided that.

?

We

get these sort of

SpurlOuS

attem p

ts, shall we say at liberalization or something, Oat's the first

point I

wantec

to mare.

?

The second

p

oint I wanted to

m a ke

is tue geuoral

ducation programme failed for two reasons, in my o

p

inion, first because

people say there's a lack of faculty Interest.

?

In

my

opinion it's a his

Lore than that, it's

a lack of

faculty interest and competence.

?

host of

Ls,

like, me, are brand new Ph. B' s fresh out of University or somathinn.

like that and we're just not competent to bc deeply involved

in

an

isc.Lplinary kind of thing.

?

Now it scorns to me that a merriam who in

.

onuisticated enough to be deeply involved

in interdisciplinary :.:u.Ls

on

1hings is

more like a tenured Associate

Pr

ofessov with a numler of 'a

br

something like that,

?

to his credit, or something

.LL.0

this.

?

it's very

Iifficult, extremely difficult to teach in your own area and it

'

s for for

17

---

dilf3cuAt to giva an

in rdi

nc.L p

lj iinry hind or be i.nvuive:

tese i.:n:

H)

j

.

n;n.v

ki.nd K .JnpioJcu unless you're vor.,' soint.ctd

So I think, again,

tui::;

J>(e)onal here will not

at

tract

iG';le;

I think it

W.LJ.J

atthact people to toac;. in it, who, basically, I know a runher of

neonJ.c who are interes

ted

15

it but most Of them are people

with

?

co-

nic Lcd M's or something like this who think the

y have a brcad view o

1world

and

\!OUld

like to ge

t

involved in some uhi ng like this. Luz I really

question

how competent those pcon.le are to get involved this u::sn they've

kuan aro;nd For qulto a while. T)i.rclJ.y the administrativa ct'r;csnre you've

got with this curriculum Comul L -5tcr1ng Corwittlee - will uctw;r cut

your own idea;; because each of the member:: on that committee I:: drawn

from the departments, from the curriculum committees from each at the

individual

dapartmnnts. And though this is a good idea in many ways

I think

i

t

will hams

tr

i

ng

the attempt to bring in a sense new

tive courses because the departments ;ill forsee this as infringing to some

Ientcnt, on their rights and shout thorn down through the committee. Again

it will be ver

y

difficult to give courses upon student demand becune,

cunnonc ton students

p etition

for a course; it takes a certain amount of

time to produce a course, I moan YOU'Ve got to find nomemocy to teach is

and you've got to got it on the calendar and so on. There's no way of

knowing that these students will still be here when the course is to be

put on; maybe 20 students

p etition and a year from now or even a semester

from now when the course is

p ut on they won't even be here; they'll be gone

maybe, graduated or left or something.

COI t

CRAW FORD:

.

There '

s nothing we can do about that. We have to, in terms of the new

regulations that Senate has passed, we have to give S months less time

for courses now anyway. Assuming you're correct about some or the

students going away, all you're saying hero is that this 2 months lead

timetPC

is . ridiculous thing; - I'd be inclined to agree ?

o ?

t we're ?

stuck wit;

it,

LSdC

S

tne way we nave to o

p erate now.

i.

can

t

see

criticizing the proposal because of the

p

roblems of the B months ied tine

cause that's not

1 don'

t

think it's right. I think what he meant there's a - we have a

degree or timing ?

it

somebody's credited with A's and S's and group C

?

and so on, I see nothing about where, they get the general education

course Programme. Would a person then be able to take all general

education courses for a major or how would this work?

It's not a general education programme per se.

Well whatever these are, I mean, are there going to be any restrictions

on the number that a person can take? Let's go hack -

?

want to go mdc::

to the second reason why the general education course failed and that is

simply due to the time.... involved because the courses were cuite heavy

really; a lot: of assays and things, so people didn't have

the

tine so

devote to these kind;; of things. And I think this will be rho scme

cure, the students will register in these kind of things, they really

A

n' t count toward a degree ver

y

much, we don't know how, and they won't

able to devote full time to these. I think this was one of she tu'cbians

with the Tufts proposal. So you'll end up with people registering in these

breath

i

things,

ng

as

Space

they co

SO

now

that

in

they

the

can

p

ollution

work hard

course

in Psychology

in Science

or

to

co

get

assaa

y

:'t

s and

or-

.

BUYSTED

16

---

•.t-l.lot Loom my

of Us;

?

tim

1L'0

it

Will

slowly

?

;r:-

s.fo

the ucih;;jc stOndaPd

?

Of

the University.

I'm Yea ii 7 quite

N

out

thn mro,Lilcr ?

Lion of what I cell

pollu Lion- t

y

pe courses in

:dvrsi

s y

'which seem to have

ruthcr a

io'i standard as

?

far ?

a:;

QI

t n oh

th is c

ould become

the same kind ?

0 ' ?

ti

W(.,Y'r ICS

this

/ if

.

•

JeOyhody

\

?

rL'co use:; that it's a - that students need to h:

' mhi tc

c

courses outside their own major Field tiCt sue::: to get rathor

and spac;:LL.i,zec. And it

w

ould he a good thing for a:;tudunt

Le able to do this, but why can't it he done within the present?

Structure by

allowing non-majors and non-hoLourc students in a field

a coui"se on a pass/rail basis?

Doing

all the work renuired of

ai 1

l 'the Eonours and Majors in the course ad getting just a sass or tail

We don't need this kind

of elaborate set-u for

that kind of

Liin;.

And that kind of

system

works

very well

in Lcrkley, : know from

oonal experience, and we do have lots of students in their first :/ear

t king

OOC

or two Course's outside their own areas and broaden

j

og their

ed

1

uctio. As for interdisciplinary, I'm not oven really cn what

that's

?

SUD0000(i

to mean, in this kind of context. I could understand an

i'tcrdiscimiinary course it it was taught by two or three people rrcm

different disciplines. but i get the kind of feeling that what you have

herd is serhars if I wanted to take a year off and re-read all the novels

oil William Faulkner or something, I could teach a course in the world of

Wlum Faulkner instead of a philosophy course and that would me some-

ho: interdisciplinary. I feel that iould be non-interdisciplinary. :c

would be a nice opportunity because I'd love to re-read all of Faulkner

BIG

I 'ci work very hard

but

I don't think it would be 1n'terc1sc:ni1r.cr.r

ani unless you have courses taught by two or three people cooseroting

ye 'y carefully and structuring the thing, structuring it so that it

doesn't become, you know, a morunsis and get out of hand then

I

it is really non-ciiscln±inary not lflterci1scimlinarv. ans toot

' s one

tn

1

ing we want to decide, I'm sure, is whether we want in'terc:scmI:net'w

courses, such as the Arts 1 programme over at UTfC where you do 'nave' meomie

from different disci

p

lines teaching the same course and working 'together

it;

or

whether we want a sort of non-disciplinary feeling like

Cad I sort of just get in here, you know • and VII.

11 recognize hen VursteLn

in ornament. It just seems to me that somehow or another all the arguments

woicn people have advanced are very legitimate arguments and all of the

in1tcresting alternatives which people have are very interesting alternatives.

hyi cuestion would be ?

all right, why the fell don't we have 'them? And

wh,r

knock a specific proposal, which is trying to do somethin

g in terms

of ?

ideals ubicci Dcnaps

r'

we ought to have but we don't have. This rorsans

aehomos a question of strateg

y

, in my mine at least. it seems to me

muLi more sensible to recognize all of the limitations of the Arts Pro-

g

rm;nc, and God knows it has a lot, because amon

g

, other thins it's

deigned politically to be workable within the Simon Fraser cornn1e::. Well

wh,' get active because it doesn't have pass/fail or doesn't have this and

don' t have all these other things which no one has ever imniomented at

this University

I just want to say personally my opposition is so vehement mecause

think the cure being proposed is worse than the disease that we now

surfer Iron.

/cJ

---

'c t

?

a

I

t. e ?

5 ?

you ?

Iniow somu day

?

wu ' ru ?

i rg

?

to

.huSThL:

go

d.iovci'

?

th: ?

whacli. ?

iii

?

u1ut ?

f. liLy ?

years ?

-

?

it's ?

like ?

goir:j' ?

crocg,

n1'Occlui'C.

?

I ?

Lh:nk ?

Hell, ?

ihy ?

don't ?

?

we hit ?

it ?

ri;.t ?

on

the head? ?

i'hc'c arc some ?

conic here who would like to

l.LerOl1Ze

I.e ?

cc ?

, ?

tiu.:re are some

?

scud cuts

Wi 0 WOUld ?

like to ;

?

I ' rn one

0:

1

1 ?

the Faculty who would lll.

r

j

to.

?

The way we do it in not to saw

yu ?

now , why don' c we iiher'aizc the degree ; that's

?

how tie

?

iindow

Cpl'scs and general education Courses got in there.

?

do alwOy:; go

through the back door.

?

U ?

eon I say

?

Chi-- is the issue.

?

:o ?

ie

want to liberalise or don't we?

?

ie say let's, you know, cevetor:

s mount these courses, they'll be a little easier and there ; s

a myth that goa.i Art' s students can't arns Science courses ;

?

so

'/OU mOUnt

snecial Science courses, this

is

the argureot ?

in

w:en ?

Lnls ?

tnng, wa ?

s

?

?

massed ,

to ii ?

tue Art':;

?

utucents

in

::dnt

to liber'l.i ze the degree then you make a requirement 1 ike most

uij:iversities

IIOVC, ?

e:;mcciolly those

?

in the ?

im p erialistic coun:r'v

to teC South wuere you have to tase certaln i'hi±osopf:y cocsen,

u•vc to take certain language courses, you have

10

ta l -.e Cer'tC5

Saicncc courses,

?

that's a liberal Art's deg- ce, that 'swhrit

?

it

mdunn.

?

Now

Ut)

here there s another problem; there ' s an economic

p onies)

10

that, in terms o Funding, you try to :on two years cs

( ,

ed training into your undergraduate programme and turn it i:.tc

01

)rotcssl

on. 0l

de

g

ree

at the same time.

?

Wel.l some da y - t:.is

is

Cnucl, raises a good point - tne University nas never' cec:cec

what it is; does it co:nolerrent UNC,

?

is it an 5.ndemendent autonc:.ous

.

ihstitutiou that is going to try to be excellent,

?

is

it

goim p to

svce the community,

IS

it going to present a ltacra

?

art's

ubgrce? ?

be'

y e never uecideu

things.

tnese

?

This is anotuer sacs-

d4or

in,

we said we don't have courses in some things ;weil .•.e

dbn' t have courses because we don't have de g artments in them,.

?

You

cn' t have courses without competent peonle; and those meonle are

uually in de

p

artments.

?

Are we going to end u p

with a hmrid,

rdsicival wastebasket de

p artment?

?

That has every course in the

wprld that you can nresent minus whet we have here, that goes

?

:nzc

tuss? ?

it wou±u be nice to have an astronom

y

course. ?

Snoule we

in there too? ?

You can't have your cake and eat

It

too.

?

Is

r)ecd those courses then send up a proposal for a dcsartment of

Astronomy or Classics.

?

But this idea, without ever tninL:ng ascu,

vou know, what the administrative procedures will be, in a

f this kind, we just sit down, 1 to H mercent of- the University

oTu1at1on saw wouldn't that be a good idea, write u

p

three or icur

and send it up.

?

Someone else sends up another one and we end

II

p

with four p

rogrammes, one of which go anywhere.

?

And while I agree

j

itb what Chcuk said about someday the members of this

Universiuw

qonnunity should sit down and say 'who are we anti where are we

that isn't why the general education courses failed.

?

They failed be-

ause the students- in s p

ite of saying that they're interested in

doucation - not in green scamp three credit courses - are interested

Sin three credit courses. ?

They don't take those courses unless they

get credit. ?

They will never take them unless thc' get cred it .Asmo 11

S ?

on

?

my a p

ologies, probably will, they're interested in edacation Lut

W

most

of them won' t take it because you won'

-L

give then any cred it for

courses.

?

And the best indication of what's gong toha.mn to

r)rogrdmme .in what happened to the window courses ama whet hcu-sencLi

o the General Education courses. ?

So why - I'm saying, here are so

:any things we could - we asked - most of these departments that we

/1()

---

/10

GOWN

•

rircunn t - asked for

Faculty

members; there

'

?

s

'

no money for

?

Cu lty

w ?

n:ed those 'faculty

1ty meH >ca.n.

?

F acre 's Sabbaticals coming u a, no one

Mary ?

thought ?

that's a

?

tyrd.ca.J. ?

thing ?

in this ?

institution too.

?

There's

al ?

Ibatica.L policy but thcvn'c no money for it, we

'

ll get

?

that later.

T

I

M ideas no up,

thay

're very vauc and no one's ever tht a) out them;

the y

' ma

p

assed and then everybody sa

y

s "bow' re you supposed to do this?"

?

be

nQ replacements l.or people, we don't have their money.

?

Now we're

oing to spend a hundred grand to fund a programme that can easily be

findcd, and I certainly would su

p

port most of these courses

?

I think

me nice; ?

it someone wants

?

to take then I think that's g

reat,

?

I '

all for giving credit.

?

But there'' no reason to fund a secrete programme

here, I'

y

e yet to hear a reason, everyone of these courses can Le mounted

in general education.

?

You can give credit for the courses and I think

the thing, that sort of irritates me, which makes me as sort of vehement

he Professor Todd is, that anyone in this University or any three people

can sit down and write um a pro

p

osal ii goes

p

ast everybody, the Faculty

if Arts has nothing to say about it.

?

I'd like to know if this goes to

•

he Faculty of Arts?

?

This affects the Faculty of Arts, it affects its

faculty, and I'd like to see it if the majority of the members of the

iody urrecteci endorse this programme, not just four people or eight

1koolc who sent it Up.

?

kayi.e a hundred percent support it.

?

:.t this

idea of little groups getting together and doing these goody goody things,

I think that's improper in a University.

ROY:

]'d like to say that I support the whole idea of this.

?

As a student

student

I'd be interested in taking these courses at Simon Fraser and I certainly

We

the idea of

KUM

Iucuse me if I may say so you've got my programme there.

?

It's my

Kist.

paper you're reading.

?

I'm glad to near it any-:ay.

'm astounded. ?

1 came here

with

the idea of supporting the first

programme i've seen since the three years since I

'ic

been :.ere

that is practical, woriccale, and sensible, as a way or

anu liberalizing the curriculum for Art's undergraduates.

erved on an early interdisciplinary studies committee in the

Faculty of Arts under Dean Matthews and we came up with one of

[the kinds of programmes that Fen Burstein is talking about and

nothing happened to it.

?

I've seen over that the first general

duca ti.on document, that fift

y

page-document, and I know that

otaing has ampened to that and I got this

in

m y

mail ho:-: ann

1 discovered that here was a case, acre was a programme in

We had a relatively small ?

a programme which was conceived as a

si.nor programme, both in term:; of budget and

in

terms of racuirv

time - which would

p

ermit itself to grow if there were interest

i ?

it and which by the devise of giving credit was very

ror -. it was realistic as a programme, it pave realistic poss:a:.1t1cS

Tor growth, an the general education programme obviousl

y

did not.

Further more I thought that since these courses were not conn?Ctee

with anyone's major, any department's major requirements that there

was a kind of natural limit placed on the amount of education that

•

any student would be able to receive from this and took that as

hardly a political gesture but as a very useful one under the cir-

cumstances of certain kinds of resistance which might be mes with

in iibe Senate or wherever.

?

I didn't expect to

find

such resistanuc in

the Faculty of Arts which seems to me really to be non-resistance to

I .

,

?

1

---

/11

he ?

niL t. o

?

0.

1.

??

,

t o

?

the ?

ir.icticctl

?

c:t:;

?

or ?

tids

ant'

'i!Oit,

?

i-ut ?

bi:;icai Jy ?

a ?

1:iu€i

?

of

?

p:Lp-ncauoe

?

co.cor'/at. inn

?

that

?

is

'eally ?

detc.it.ny ?

cc! ?

cati.mii ?

in ?

the ?

Jnivcx:;.LLy.

Well I don' t

1:1)0w

now much negative comment has been mace.

1lth

it

?

woui.d ?

he

?

u::e.FiiL ?

_

1

st

?

I.

or ?

ichgr-ound ?

to

?

pick up ?

soi ?

t:ing ?

tat

Ken

?

: ?

rte

LII ?

SOL(I .

?

J.

?

rcili1ysymn ?

j.Lxc

?

with ?

what

?

bc

?

sys ?

t!ict ?

no-

t; ?

dawn ?

au!

?

thins,:;

?

alout ?

these ?

tbiuips ?

iii ?

t'u::;

?

of

?

the

?

Jon;'

u'um ?

1)o ?

;i).i.l.i.ties. ?

:

?

think ?

certainly

?

that

?

the ?

faculty

m

?

berm:

?

should

have a chrinco to dcrnte this eisA talk about it.

?

For a whole year' I was

L1 1

.0

Chairman of the Academic

P

lann i ng in

Arts

you know, ?

the

nor.-

existent oasIs, and I took this on a year ego because I told gull.:.ves

that

?

I was going

?

to be here for

tao

next year and

?

i ?

.-iould ae'.-;i1:ng

50

spend my time on this ann

call

meetings and really get scmetr.ing

donc .

?

Well you know, this is

really pushing the rock us the bill

lecause I never could get go.Lng; every time I called a neetin

p

, very

support

lOW

m ?

embers

at all,

o

?

f

from

individual

individual

departments

deartmenzs

showed

or

up.

from

?

I

the

really

bean's

no

sad

3ffice,

I tuns, whatever the reasons for that and I practically, you

?

:ncw, on certa

points really hogged arid pleaded with bale to get this kind of clan off

the ground. ?

how why it never brippened isn't

somethin

g

that you co*,;-d

espaain ?

ut if it can nappen now,

?

if Burstein is rlcgit,

?

it oug:.z to ne

cone with

?

tiuts kind

01:

carerul contem

p lation or

possatlties.

can be done now ,

£

would like to

know bow?

?

how can you get

tSiS

hnc

of session going?

?

You know some sort of careful planning could be done.

by personal response to this proposal is that it doesn't go far enough.

As the drattsunrin or tue proposal i '11 agree witii you.

That if I were -to find the one - it doesn't really isolate the

p

roblems that we have, I think, and I 'd like to hear from

stud cnts -

really - what they consider the problems to be.

?

bow from the inn

it looks to sic like the proalems are

JUSt

C

tremescous amount or

smutting of-

peopid' s

time,

?

A kind of adolescent

?

- in terms of

Things that

?

are trying to accomulish that 's that

comnlex.

?

people

Would you say that this mroposal could aCCCIflO(lätC saw,

a

snec ?

555

Os

1;9 ?

that we would give 15 hours credit for?

?

Accompllssasg sometnons,

over a long period of tine.

hot initially, hut I would ho

p

e that the initial mror-osai 'orks cut

J.

?

well that

that kind of thing can be

added

on in time, on

reise that this is a ease to which can

be added.

tue

p ?

m

Yeah but wuat' s the argument that the urgency of the situation

is now the stucent' s time is parcelled out •

?

is categorized, a

tn.cclock peonie are puncnlng a 1 the ttme.

?

u

?

assume

t

- - -

ss :s tue

kind of thing that goes through people's minds when theyre discussina

this king oi:

thing. ?

Why can't we nave Arts 409

1

or, for esamule , a

secondary new course of 219?

?

can't

Why

we slot new courses lib e that.

i:;

that something tnat contradicts tns?

•

::.

?

Fell

?

it does

in

the terms

of-

tns uroposal wbcn

tai;s us: ortunetely

in maiuy way:; of three credit and five credit courses, because that's

what we have.

?

but I would hope,

y

ou know, I would hope that in the lcng,

run that other

things can he

added

on

to tuuls sine of proposal. Th:s one

kind of limited.

/12

---

/12

.

Jo

vi;

?

on

tKo

?

..i r.Ly

?

.i ntcr

I

.i:;cip]

J ;Iur','

?

CO

?

nit tee ?

also

?

which

iv

?

Mu ?

uIr'e

.d

?

tcw; . ?

are ?

_i

?

variety OF r ouons ?

that ?

r.c1tu.ne

ii:e a

?

that. ?

iiucriiy

?

- and ?

the primary reason was

?

the otr'uc;turc

through which elogrumme s

had

to go.

?

And ?

the current nrcccuuret r.ow

is an attempt to get by that, that in to say to get tngs

eccO11shcU

Vat can't to )IIockcu at

3

lower level.

?

And ?

tnef(; in some virtue in that

programimc, You know, that I think should

?

he cn to Mcun2lon ?

1: the

ucu.i.Ly.

?

The point ?

in ?

that ?

-

?

or kind '& hel

p

that

?

J.

?

thought at

Litt . ...mu was luasol able for the nrorur:)rnc .

?

We even

td

1Y.C(

?

al,G

t the

possibility oT gettingintcrdisciplinary work between Arts and 5ciencC

And

the basis of this prononal was that sevcral people would teach the

bane course from different d j scii,lincs.

?

1/by didn '

t

ary Ccv nick that

6p

and plug it into the system and send it right now?

?

it would go

1

sn just as quickly as this one would go up.

?

I think that, perhaps you

now, what you

p

ointed out that this was a practical, ne'

practical

pnnroacn.

?

My point is that that could be a practical a

pp

roach

under

the new procedure and why couldn'

t

we just send that straight up?

Teat was teacher faculty. ?

I'd just like to comment on the fact that

you brought up the point that

this

is an a

p

proach somehow more practical

than the other.

'Just let me point out that it seems tome that the advantages in that

it starts off small and it has a chance to grow and depending upon

demand it could he formed by a committee which will remain relatively

statis as it grows.

?

The advantage of the other was that

it

ir.volvec

the development of a new department.

I tank the real thing here, which I think some people rail to

recognize, is that this proposal really is no different than any

or the other ?

proposals,

as i think Alderson irnplys, that have come

Ito Senate.

?

If you go hack and reed the fifty

p

ages that reached

your box it has the same aura of bold new experience

?

and being able

to be creative and acing the things that tnev want to cc.

?

'aa

reason

these things die is

the

same argument that accomnanys ever

y

troranr.e

proposal that reaches Senate.

?

The reason that they die is either, and

this is something, else that no one here seems really to accent,

?

is

that really there isn't even a small minorit

y

reedy to

e::hLbi: an

interest in the programmes that's why they die or that we don': have some-

how the wheels to get them moving.

?

Again I suggest to you that you

everything in here done; unlessyou've got a set of some administrative

get

structures for justifying a budgetary item of a hundred and ten thousand

I dollars, everything here can be cone within the general

ec:uce:icn

rr'are-

.;or.-;, ?

Some oi -

these courses have already been offered ;::t;.:r

?

tao

general education framework.

?

There is no difference in the rcticsae

for these as accompanied the window course or the general education

courses; there is no difference whatsoever.

?

The rationale's

LIIC

same.

?

They all

die and no one - and then someone says

Li OOt S

do it again and then we cue up with another name and another thins that

Ms.

Tell do you think this is true though? There's a small

?

nonizv at-

lean five or six in the English Department who are anxious for this kind

of chance in general education for..

•

but ho.;

to teac

Meglish

doe the English

h those courses?

Department?

Department feel about that? TaM] me them out

Well who's going to teach the courses in the

1

---

•

one o ?

t}

, ,;

eiivi t.t'e:; 01 th.i.s priosal Lu that it nrovi.dn

uuW: .ih'om

tJC ?

a,dr tnint Lo

PCtJdCc

tIOSC

J)Cu)f)Jf: WhO 5'C

YCflI

?

R:a.:L

Lhal,_.': one

that \.'c:

'In' t

iLre -

Ibc:ulL',' th.i t we need

education courses by

not competent in the

of the things that I think irk::

ucne

faculty

we ?

' t lwivc a hundred tuounarid to hire

but we hove a 1(unere(.1 thousand to mount general

ecrle, some people have implied

are

really

e areas.

Askin'. for an additional hundred thousand to educate students not

to hire raculty we need

this sounds

g

reat to ecucate students I assume that tue entire

University budget is to educate students.

Lie don' t

claim to

:duFsTi::

?

That's t

and they

• educate

educate

eue.

educate

student s

students

have a 1'

students

without faculty to educate them. We

tnat never get a tning tnrougn tr.eir scads

:)t of

p

rogrammes that sound very liberal

and they are utterly useless.

As a sort of an analysis I tried to sort, of analyse some of

the problems again as ,.i'

,,

v this wouldn't work as general education

wouldn't work.

?

I'd like to point out why I don't think this rrosrnme

will go either.

?

1 also don't participate in it because I know bein

An untenured assistant professor I know that for me to go and teach

the French Novel and all other kinds of

?

. ..

?

if I did some-

thing it's not going to get me a promotion, it's not going, to get me

a raise, it's not going to get me tenure and all those kinds of t::in,s.

And thisorogramme isn't going to go as far as I can see because

?

eCnC

are not actively going to become involved in it.

?

It'lllast if some

runciamental change in the nature of tIle University in tae Tenure Ccmm:::ee

.;.n the Senate or somethin

g

that means proposals le tIlls are vaue:;

cause proposals like this aren't valued.

?

And until that ceange occurs

I don't see how this can go.

STE:iT

Im

' ?

just looking at everybody.

?

It seems to

nu t the whole

?

emnhasis

on tne taculty that means :

.

/ou scmm to taKe

?

or grantec tnat tre

students and I don' t unuerstana the full context,

y

ou know s

tnI

aren't going to work because the faculty aren't going to do it.

Well the tning isn't going to ac even ott tuiat base it t::e stucants

a y

you're taktng,

in it. ?

And either way, the

w ?

l

aren't interested

tcre's no way I would want a course uncer either or you.

how many general education courses have you taken?

York University, I took a full year of it.

:.T!h:

'The one's nere have you taken it?

?

I don't think were talking

•

about tbs guy, we said students aren't interested in courses ::ev

On' t

pet credit for.

A

p oint of

?

information ?

-*

L

, . ,

,

the Fufts pronosal I believe there

1 ..:

"

s a

oroposol for senior students teaching courses wasn't there .n that

Tufts ?

programme?

Well maybe this has worked.

?

I mean then semicr

---

.

cA.:c:):

L

ud ?

flt. S

?

'.•:nii

id ?

come

?

J ;ivolved ?

in ?

thin

?

thing. I wouldn't bauome

cent' a

!involved ?

In it h0cau&

I hiior

w

hat the score

in you know,

?

I've got

N ?

.iaiiiv to feed

and ?

so on.

On

I suggest there are two other programmes

to discuss.

Yen, ?

:ci'zar)u we could, ?

for the seize oF the other

programmer, go

from the Arts Proposal to come of the others

and we'll try to

come beck for those who nant to.

W

OH

couldn't we just schedule it for a Faculty

of Arts moc

It

would be nice to have the approval of the

majority of the

embers of the Faculty concerned rather than

simply sending things

up and forwarding to Senate.

?

I think this is

a proper discussion

for the Faculty of Arts, which hasn't met for

quite some time.

It is within your province to petition for a Faculty of Arts meeEng

at any time.

1 should think it would be a regular process. Not that one had

Ito petition for it.

TOP!):

?

lAs critical as I've been 1' nevertheless want to thank

y ou for doirs

it because at least it gets discussion of the thing moving.

boll perhaps we could turn to the Diddle East/Africa Studies

Pro p

osal. Professor iKu p

will, I'm sure, be happy to try to

answer any questions about this.

FtP:

Yes 1 could but I said just now it is my programme with isv own

-

P

rivate notes on it.

?

It is, of course, Dr. ?

Stigger's work, who's

called the meetings and I might add all the de

p artmental renrescmzza:ives

gathered to talk about this and we've had many meetings to discnrs

this over several months. ?

It is an attem p

t to again begin to break

away from the rigidity of departmental, offerings and have o:renins

outside the departments like this one.

?

i think some of the

is being slightly misunderstood because we've got ex

p ensive, ?

ii:•ze all

programmes do.

?

But if you look at page 14 it does say that at least

S credit flours would normall

y

be obtained in a ?

non-European lanasage.

I This will allow suFficient flexibility to meet the needs of a student

who is particularly interested in an area where Arabic or a

?

anau

language is not spoken. ?

In such circumstances until a relevant local

language is available com

p

etence in two European languages would be

re q

uired to be taught by the Department of Nodern Languages.

?

In other

words if I could also draw pour attention to page 17 where the expenses

of the thing are and I see everyone is worried about them - those

heavy expenses under Arabic Speaker, i3nntau Sneaker and Swahili Sneackec,

-d ich akI up to a very sizable budget, ?

I. think about two hundred thou-

cenu, there were one one, two, three, four, five veers.

?

These are not

concidercu to be absolutely essential at the moment. ?

In other words this

.

certificat of competence is very largely intended to be what we conic

nut on

.

here at no extra cost at all; this is really now this tn:ng

sc-gem; how discussions began. ?

This is what the origin of tne thing was..

Having said that I would now be happy to answer any questions but I would

like to hear more students asking questions and we had a nice discussion ther

and perhaps - this is very important - we have discussed it among faculty

/15

---

/15

diP:

d.Ltciiy at

?

:;Ono

?

.L.ugth

and

at

?

sevra1 meetings and

?

presuu.:.iLly ?

the

.

faculty hava

,

hod a chance to say what they want or will have a

chinuc later Luc

?

1 would irnaqinc anyway we should cut snort

T:r7

dco

lleagucs and I would welcome

reaction from students particularly

out the languages.

Which of these courses do you .1:orsoc dealine

,

with

actual

cultural

Yes. ?

Well you can sc the USA

dcrartncnt,

?

is heavily involved ?

in

the teaching and you can

draw your o'.-m conclusions; and this is the

i.ntcn tion tort

yOU

should

have

Archaeology

and Sociology a"(,'

A

?

and all the other tflifl5S and not merely just Kwory

'or

Geography

but you should also have those too; language is another

thing and Economics is a

?

... ?

as well. ?

So you should, as it

were, be a metropolitan type perhaps

country ?

...

?

the lot of it; ?

it doesn't hurt to

I '

y

e got a programme specialty now but - well with the involvement

IW-Lth ISA ,

?

- I mean it's so hard to get into PSA

courses now. ?

be all

know

what kind of trouble PSI is having regarding teachers and the.

AM:

Was that a question?

Well

Well I coUld say this about that, it's hard to get into many courses

now because there's a squeeze on and most History courses For e>:anmle

have a ceiling on them. ?

I think this is - I don't know why you should

think about

PSI

in this way - and PSA isn't

going

to fold u

p on us.

I shouldn't worr y

about that.

On cell. ?

Also in the History courses and there's Quite a number ot

hstorv courses mentioned here.

?

Would these stay the same or

restructured or different content, you know, as to what

the stucents want.

Yes, well the answer to that is - to both your questions - is bc:.

In other words they might stay the some or the y night be restruc:red

I don't think this is an

y thing - and I'm not trying to dodge

q

uestion - it's just that we would-have to see bow this went but

history department is, in fact, thinking about replacing some of its

courses alread

y

and so 1 don't think any,

?

I think this is the nice

thing about this University, no course offerings in any Department are

fossilized. ?

Perhaps we've had complaints that the y

're not fossilized

ehough. ?

But it is a living thing and therefore there's no reason

why they shouldn't change under changing circumstances.

I have two questions which may not interest the students.

?

One nas

to do - really my basic objection, I think, to all these programmes

is that they're called new programmes.

1 This isn't a new programme, ?

This

is

the whole point. ?

have you

rcad our

p a per. ?

It's not new programmes.

RURMLIN:

k

?

1 don't think it is either.

low

---

/13

1.

hi.s ?

j_'; ?

L1

1 "' ,

?

noint we

have not called

?

it a

?

new pro ?

u:e

1UThh:

' ?

a ?

t i old

01 ?

conceiiinnt.i

On ?

nd ?

it would seem

1:0

nc ?

that all

?

it would

15 ?

C31e11CLP entry and tee agreement

of ?

the

deoartmer. t

S

1'dCILII'C

?

.

0

in

?

the courses he.ng otiwr'cd

?

ifl

that field of cor:cer.t'0tio.

1nI

t' S

onepoInt.

?

Now Ilic other

p

oint is tbut, and

the

other source

in

a

?

ncn ?

01

?

j.utrat

i.Cfl ?

with mc,

?

is, ?

that aside frc:r. what

?

seems

)C

a nr0i1te1a t ion of nrogrammes and

?

ogra:wen thorn'

?

a :,rc,iif cration

t

1

0

of ahsinistratVe structures involved.

?

anc thin rjarticular ad::.inistrative

urwature again, I know 1 would call into quest ion;

?

it is ads. I

?

stored

each

?

I

:v ?

OCUItY ?

ta.1C1U

ng

in

COC ?

given ?

term. ?

Now thi.

?

mean:; tact, an

ead it,

?

it moans

that ?

Five or six faculty arc going to ad

Tr!

in inter the

durri.culum of this field of concentration one term they

?

rebiv won't

ie on the next term.

?

Uc get five or six

?

ifferent peoule.

?

:ow ny

dxmerience from decision making bodies in this university is ti:ev're

if they have a five year tcrrr.

?

If you change them every tern

1

c,

c

result is chaos.

KU?:

Jeli I'd like to sa

y

two things about that.

?

One in we don't

-

visapc havinn to havemucii of a suoerstructUrc at all.

?

be

envisage possiuly later on somebody

wilO

coordinates the programme

\fbo

will not get any extra money for it but may get some money to

huy postage starnos wi.th, woula be a part time secretary.

?

dut since

are not, and I re

p

eat, we are not putting on extra courses in t5t

sense, we are only using what's airaUy available

i

n the University,

e don't see the need for a great superstructure

anyhow.

I;URSTFN:

that' s my weole point; it's a field of concentratIon which is more

br lens natural in many universities and consists or taking certain

patterns oft

:

certain courses over various (:epartmcnts anu

tfliS

s::ouid be

agree,] on formally or irlsormdlly hetween tie uepartnerlts concernec,

?

I:

'JoulC

seem to Inc.

?

And it should cc listed in tee calenivar, this

iS

imply a re

q

uest for a calendar entry change, from my point of view.

hie other thing that hoters me is that,

?

I'm not sure I read it care-

ully, you so:id that some sort of certificate i.s given.

?

I wonder about

the value of that certificate actually I reallV - in some sense

?

I were

enZ

irely honest -

?

a wonder about the

?

; eci.ficet.i.on of the fieab

?

ccx-

cntration.

?

1 assume anyone who can read a transcrint kno.s tt this

business of the

?

iddle Lastemn politics Niddie i.;astern languages,

?

dle

Lantern Archaeology, or whatever it is but if we want to formalixe

fin a ride or concentrationti:a

t

'S

fine;

?

OUt

.L

wonder waetaer

to leau to a

p

ro literatlon of cer'tir).CateS of vaflouS

p

atterns on

is

?

to be co-

courses and various de

p

artments, the meaning of which

?

ye:

p

YCS,

but of course I can't speak for whoever else wants to put a

certiicatd on naturally, whether anybody does.ut it would noes.

that it does require a little extra work from students rather than

the ordinary straight b. A. and therefore it doc

?

seem reancxa ic to

H.ve it a name.

?

After why write b .A.

?

after somebody who made un his

credits to see whether he' s got one or not

?

even thougn von can carrw

this argument to almost any length.

?

You don't have to have a nicce

of moper with hachelor of Arts on it, even thoug.....

And

I cdx' t see that this is nece::sanily cn argument one way cm the ether.

to whether it'

?

a ','iable certificate or not depends entirel

?

noon

.0W eS

regulati.ons it puts it under and what the couroes arc.

I Nenate a:d who-c

---

/.1.7

li

?

Lhuy way Artainly

thcy']:e interested ?

it ;.d.l1 be the sane as

COMA

lany

other course

?

that

'

s

?

ta1cn ?

i.e

?

the 1ivernity.

Contrary to Mr. ?

Burstein I think more is needed than just a

Stu: cut

calendar en try .Asan upper level history

tory ?

Lee ent what

?

J. *

lintcrcsted in -

?

r can s

ee

in needed

cdc ?

is more interdisciplinary -

cnccia.tly botwccn History and PA - cooperation.

?

You go along and

you nick en, you know,

?

I'm interested in African studies and Ar.can

history. ?

You pick

U!)

the odd PEA course here that just happens to fit in

ma y

be, oh.

?

It doesn't work it's not jun tra calendar entry, you want some so:

of structure that's going to get

the

peonle from PA and the people from

histor y

- the faculty - who, that's where the responsibility lies, together

to work out some sort of integrated programme for the students rather

than leave it - you hempen to run into somebody in tbehhall,:cmc professor

in the nail, and you happen to pick up his course, and it's great, it

fits in.

?

Wow. ?

I'd just like to see a little more organization.

Abi)EhSOM:

I really like this programme. ?

I think if all denartmento nut on

la programme like this we'd have an interdisciplinary nrogram:ne

making teem all cmnhlncu.

?

The certificate's fine - why not?

?

I

W1S)

Psychology would do it so that they would, say, take courses

n other departments, for the fulfillment or a certificate and.

et some acknowledgment for tnat.

?

I can't see any argumentagalnst

Igt.

It fits within the current structure or the University, it's

not going to cost much money, and it is an interdisciplinary course

.

I and if ever" department

did

it we would have an interdisciplinary

programme within the 'urijiverstty.

Yeah, I was going to say,,I mean we can print up nice certificates

I don't really care so long as it's just done on the basis of

some kind of greater coordination 'of our current course offerings

ama teen it's Just a matter, you see, or having the com

p

uter snew

out the names every year of the students who have taken /. num.e.r

of courses and hand them a certificate, and that's fine with me.

but this is really a proposal for some kind of

p rogramme that we

don' t have already and I'm kind of wondering what for?

?

Why do

you want these courses in African stuff?

?

If we're going to

com p

ete with Queen's, for example, in staffing the de

p artment of

External Affairs that's fine - let's say so and offer courses

towards that, you know, purpose so that we can educate ciplomass

and so on.

?

but otherwise what's the interest or value

0:

mu

on all these cources?

?

I want to separate, by the way, the Middle

Lastern proposal from the African one - because it's easy to

justify the Middle Eastern proposal; after there's very close

COflflOCciOflS

between Western European culture and civilization and

Piddle Eastern culture and civilization and languages.

?

But 1 don't,

if your not really going to train some specialists in African stuc:es,

c

-ho are, you know,

?

if you're just going

?

to offer a lot of courses hcuse

oc-owie are interested, you know, a i-es; neonle are interested in then

i don't think there's any a

p

ornt to it.

Out that

'

s the point, we're not Just offering a rev scatterec:

courses.

?

That's the whole pout we don't or

i:C1'

a rev scattcrec

courses now.

?

The whole object of the exorcise is to :nter.rata

I

what we do ofFer more than it is integrated already.

?

I don't see

/ib

---

/15

we ni:ou id

try

?

n.i ?

.Leise ?

se Goveremcn t J)epsrtnent .

?

I

t

?

see ?

that ?

there ?

:.; any

?

I("V, InCO

at ?

alL.

:cu ?

cnusc,

?

look there's

no -

the fact of

?

the matter 1:. t1t

nc enoueh some Sctharan

A.1r.LCaSS

have various CUltures in

rater

?

ecc

orate and do], sod sense of the term culture, which in

iY' ?

OC

iolo

?

.1.sts anu /rtrOF)OlOglst5

v God

hat in fast there is no culi:ure interest,

they

have

1) ?

Jr; ?

to offer

a ?

an y

cultural intarcu; t in the sense of the tern which one might

use it speaking of a high culture.

?

That in to say

I have something to

?

. ?

conjecture.

TODD:

hait.a minute.

?

I know there is no Swahili

Shakespeare

I haven't neon anything like this since a boy-scout meeting.

TOdd:

.cll ?

f soncone will inform me of tee name or a Swamili

Seafespeare

1 snail

be

vcr r

hanny to

Gentlemen! ?

i do 0h)ect to this arrogance of people in here,

tnev've

been speaking

•

It's a put on

it's because of people

like you

that we need these bloody courses!

bdSTLI;

Just one comment.

?

That's why I say we need to define ir.tcrhisclinary.

I don't think this is an interdisciplinary programme at all.

?

-n inter-

I disci p

linary programme means that you have noenle comnetent in different

disciplines given the same problem, I'm all for that.

?

In Pncb

had cognition we' d have

?

ernaps a neuronhysioioglst, a mans modeler,

a nsyciologint, someone in the lb-Sciences all addresnin-

?

themselves

to the saire problems and issues.

?

T1e meaning of inzerdiccip-inory that

we're using makes the B.A. degree an interdisci

p

linary desree.

?

lu

simply says if you take a course in PSA and you take a course in kis:or

and they're somewhat related it' s interdisci

p

linary. ?

That inn' t what

use term, in my exoerencc, means.

?

You nave notsing but a csec:-emnoarc

of related courses - they're not interdisciplinary in every sense.

?

if

I understand your comment that you meet a gu

y

in the hallwa

y ?

nd kin

course happens to fat in, tint's exactly vOat tnas as.

1 hope we can play those comments hack when we get back to

t]

-l

e Arts

Programme

UiTEI y

:

but the thing

is

there's nothing interdisciplinary about it.

?

It

implies competent people in different disciplines lookinn at the

some subject matter in a different

?

•zay. ?

bat some guy who was i 'ci

like to teach this course and there are ten students who want to

hear it. ?

It' s very different.

That's just absolutely untrue, that you can define interdiscimlinary.

/ 1

---

:0 \'OU i0j.L1C tue

?

),solutc

with ii:'.

'i'odd?

•

1 'm Lalking about t

he

tradi

t

ional concept

that W

ord

inciplinary

! studi

os

cncolanasscs both proale:n areas as well as the kind that

an def

ined. it ccomp:inscr; so:rethinr, as far ranging as reoule

comic; together in under a special namo of a college and living

together and working together and

studying together.

it

ecc::.nnes

at

lcw';t five

(Ilfierent kinds of concept. The kind you just dribed

in just one. It

seems

to me the history Pro

p

osal is

talking

about

an area study.

dei1.

I'm sugges

ti

ng tha

t

the only one

that

generates any addition

in tnarcs of knowledge in the kind that I

'

m tel ng Cout .

hot

\s'MCfl

people talk about their

subject

matter from their point of view

ut i

dwn

they look

at d

iffcrent subject matter from their point of

view, where they have a common ability involved. IntcrcItscnl nary

approach towhat? Now you fill in the what, and you tell me bow your

system is an interdisciplinary approach to anything.

Imy:o:'if bl1eve

is a prohlem arc

I if

you

bring a p

and information

that i

t

rakes no

this r)r'oponal that the Liddle Last and /fricre

that no one person is

s

pecialized tn ens that

cup of people together you can

concentrate

CttCfltiOfl

ii

a particular area. I mean is this so

S1smC

sense?

.

':'he Piddle Last is a problem area, it is probably, you know,

has

an infinite nurdier of

facets

and I

'

m sure they'll all adjust them-

selves to some of these facets. out there is nothing interdisciplinary

about what is being generated or what the student:: are gettng unless

they adjust themselves to the same facet of the problem.

Well I would agree with that.

I'm riot sure how bringing five psychologists together to talk about nrcblama

of cognition.

That's not what I said. I didn't say five different Psychologists

at

all. That wouldn't be interdisciplinary at all. I said to

in

a

Leuronhysiologist, a mass modeler, a pharmacologist,

a cellular

biologist. Think how their different concepts which the other four

don't know anything about.

Oh. Sorry about that.

I think this programme might have some more possibilities than

we've really seen so far. For one thing it is, I think

it

car:

crow, I think, because the contents

15

based

10

the cenartoent

where the power in this University seems to tie, and that macrio

in the departments; if people in PSA and history and kofern languages

can in a sense become

committed to

this, I think there's a possVilim,

of people becoming interested up here that might

effect ampoinlonents

and promotions add things. That

'

s where the ke

y

lies in

the thinn

and people could. I think, I think it's

p

ossible for this to he developed.

And possibly also it could be used

to loosen things u

p

. For o>:arr:olc

if history will let people in from Lodarn Languages and some senior

applicant History

course without, you know, ten courses

and

so on.

I haven't read the proposal so I can't talk about

it too much. but it

.

/2(,,

---

;oni ?

po;.i.1i1.i.ui,

IflOi('

S tLLnk t1in the fJrat one.

One point- Uat s continually being pusned is Acaucuic conmetence to

teach tIc courses. If you only have one man on cernt is who Pr:owa

sometirLu,', chou

L

a course - if there ' a only one guy on camnus

wr.c

flO5

so:nc

US JI1

ObOUt

a topic , who'

S SiOC .LOJ. 150(1

in

it .

?

5.0

to j- the man a cometcncc? On whit basis in it going to

lic j udgc.i? And the a thor tiling in , 1`m wondering who tier there

an accurate perception oi- what a

h.I- .

is really all Cuout? iln..SninA

m.uc thin semester I 'm Sb nuLng exocti.y iSat

?

T

wortn .

I

T,

r.aving

tO

toil eoule I'm

a gra.ie 11 drop out to get a

jou .

I'm riding :st a s.-.

as such a.a a great way to get a ;roacer education; it',-, a nice way to stay

out or the Iaoour market for four years. dut unless you're goir.g to

jo on and got into the publish or perish game - caxcout for very limited

.iaculties of either the high Science or the arplied Engineering tyac of

thing you're not going to he using your L.A. to work in the field

hi

tu

wnicn you prcsumanly are s

p ecializing.

I

thin taut i f

you go

unead and ask the students um here the majority of then have

boon

sucked

in by the myth that unless you've got a L.A. you're nothing. I think the re

E

society is starting to accept that unless you've got a L.A. you're

iiothing, you have to have a grade 12 to drive a garbage truck, hut

in tour years you'U need a

S.h.

to do tue same

jou.

I

tuins tao roaser

a

p ers p

ective a student gets on his own culture and t'-.e otser cultures,

1 thin:', one of the probably beat articles that has neen written;--.as

been the i3ody Rituals of the Naleramena, to aont out lust our own

eccentricities. And

And I think via that type of a perception we would

ze that perhaps there are African Thakespeares.

?

: will ma-se

people realize that some of the cultures have nean aroune i

`

or :r.ree or

four thousand years; most of them from the bidule East

WIiICS

was

iround when the culture from Shakes

p

eare came were noa-extstant as

civa-lizec culture.

'

1 2

U

CAhu ?

-'

Student

ft

'd like to come back to Professor Todd's point, roughl

y

,

?

in :.at

ho one would deny that there are certain natural tiCs between the

stud y

of Political Science, Sociology, Anthroüology and. bistc'.

?

and

of ?

odern Languages and no one would deny that it would he nice if in

all the courses that you could have some over la

p -, ?

so that :;cu cam

go on from a history course to a Sociology course and find some

sort

of

natural ties.

?

Put it's also nard to cony that

i t's camn

?

:t:::cu: to no

gnat, in all areas.

?

I mean, it wouid he damn ui:i:zcuLt to ccoic:na te

tue

?

stOry courses on Luroean arstory anu all tue taings PS:-.:.a-a

e. ?

You snow,

?

ir

?

ou cccli ta:e

say (luout tue situation

?

n ruror ?

y

continent by continent; it would just he damn difficult and mrc'hc

o' ?

iic to

?

CL ?

fl

t cco-

'

s-Os

co'ori r

?

- ?

oc

?

a ?

a-

1:loiy and PSA so that

?

there would be

L

,

consistenc ?

in ?

i1 of them

that uconic want.

?

So what 'a being argued here is that Africa and

the biudie hant deserve sneclal attention tn all this;

?

i: we c-sn':

nave cona:stcncy an PSA

?

history, and ?.ocern nangunges .anu

?

n

continent let's at least pick two end concentrate on

?

them.

?

ow.-::.at 's

tue justification for concentrating on Africa?

bell I can answer that one.

?

Since the t, :payer already foots a

large bill at UhC for concentrating on the Far Last.

?

because

it doesn't make sense to spend a lot of money du

p licating courses.

and ?

d

If you want to study the Far East, and there's a boa-v

?

goo

/21

---

/21

c.i

Lection or ChOnse 1i:in:cr.ij't:; and otlw:r collections,

and it's

cont' J v"rv :cn:;.i.ve i(lr5 up tLis

collection - it dou:n t literally

n'kc sese to

do it all over aain here • with our stricken finances

It

doesn

't

make sense anyway.

take it the

University now

is

that

there'

s

no University

in

C;ctea

that's concentra

ti

ng on I\trlCan Studies so here '

s

a

chance

Or us to achieve special status if we cbnccntrate on African studies?

:KUP:

&St.

STU:)H:':T:

Wall in

fact

we already have the biggest holdin g

in any library

in Canada, I think I'm right in saying, in Africana.

Very close to it.

So it's not a matter of starting it, we're there.

I see - so that your argument is that we've got a chance to make it

as a History department, in DAL, and some of the PSA Department.

lo mace it as a University, to concentrate on Africa. And let's

forget about

Africa,

comoaatiVc import of African History ama

European history but we could make it in African History so we

should do that?

Well the answer is the object of all this is to use better, the

talents we already have here. In other words to coordinate them

more fully and, and I wish some students would speak about this,

who'

y

e taken these courses, to provide better some of the things

the students find are a present lacking in these courses.

p

.

Now this seems absurd because someone could go all the way through

this University and take a liberal artp degree and never hear about

Hessian or De}lussy or Voltaire, I mean there are people who go

through this University without acing in touch with Euro

p

ean History

and culture the culture on which we are all based.

We offer European History courses.

Yes. ?

But I ?

mean

?

it's

?

possible ?

for ?

people

to, at this stare,

?

I mean

the whole education

p

rocess is so incompetent, it's possible for

people to go through this University without getting in touch wIts

their own culture.

?

Now in light or this, the suggestion that we

should extend great effort and a great deal or faculty time to

come in contact with culture - with the African culture, which you

is necessarily more impoverished than our own and .farzher awa

y

from

our own, necessarily more impoverished because the

y

do-'t - most

oft hose tribes don't even have a written language.

KWh:

i

I'm not going to answer this question because I'm tire of iz -

someaouy else can.

Yes. ?

I just want to say that I personally am well aware that the

intellectual, heresy of culture relativism is rampant on this

and that it is the wide s

p

read belief that all cultures and all civil-

izations in all periods are of equal value.

?

Someone pointed out to no

a few minutes ago something to the effect that our ancestors ware once

---

..

W

C a: d

'T

SF00

j. ?

/jr ?

ni rc

.vU

7CO ;"rtrr oo, looking at

pint.L1)', tiiCJ.P

bodic:; blue and ?

ying at ide noon and

corinc! Lhcm with the Chin('sc would have had

to

say that the Cinene

had asundr.:.or ccl urc .

?

'lacy

:UU

a cvi1zat.ion '.::ile our er.Contorn

wcwe ;a\T:;)

•

?

iba 0 would ha;c icca true 2000 years ago; it in true

today, oaver, that Luroneai: culture and civilization, in tmr oF

Li ;

vamne and .L Ls

?

trinnic I t:ies , and men. t is u ctcnly nuner.J or

to all o. tnc current alternatn\'cs and there in

no

cultural interest

i.crc and

is can be no ccl Lural interest in

?

LaL1i;inp, thin kin'. oF

n:D

c

F3m:ce as there could or would be in ;n tcihlil. irig a ro :nre or

C

coarse

ifl

Italian music, or German Oncra , 17 -,-, e n c

'

! i nteratune

öU 50 Ofl.

1 am not omponod to an African studies orogranrie but I want to know

nurnone of it . IF we're going to set u a , say, an

benLtrtment which soecidii:?.es in African studies Fine but let's gas

so:e better oromosals than tam, it just sort on looks am.ee wou'r'e

interested in proposing a kind of very liberal and culturally relativistic

smorgasbord, and also that students can go through and taste a little of

this and taste a little of that. Well I'm sorry they haven't nad

enough of their own culture; I'm just not satisfied really.

I ask a question then, just for a change? Vc have here a?

lot of criticism about the programmes that have been rut out and

how wrong they all are and ?

courses are suonosed to be structurec.

'i lixe to know why, when you ask for programmes to be put up all

these people with these wonderful ideas didn't put up a programme

themselves?

They're too busy congratulating themselves on their superior culture.

I'm not sure that's a relevant question.

It seems to me that I'm . ..

?

to what g

r. Burstein's been

?

Onudens ?

saying. You really have to decide are we a training institute or

are we education.

Right, right.

?

ihCh: ?

Way don't people get together and talk about what we're do:ng; wbt is nt?

We've just heard two

p eo p

le, two students, both intelligent I'm sure.

One of them says now can you get through here not knowing who

Voltaire is or heternich or de3ussy.

?

he nave someone wao says

can't get a job.

?

If I had my way I'd tell him to go to a trade

school if he wants a job, you should have been told when you enrolled

in the programme that you can't get a job with an Ab the same thing

is true in Psych.

?

But it the fact is - has be decided whit he wasted

to be?

?

Tlwn you would have these different philosonhies generati::

a

each

-ill

other.kinds

of,

?

I

you

like

know,

to comment

nrograrnmes

on one

all

of

of

Professor

which arc

?

antagonistic

up' s, I have

no

no

onjection to the content of either of these proposals.

?

I coject so

.

the structure which always involves administrative structure, rrolif-

eration of names, I think these can be done very simnly.

Well I

?

ointed out to you once we want a part time secretary.

Right,

?

I'm all for it, Utilize your facilities. That's great.

/20

---

/23

kU?:

:o

D` 3:

Cu)' t utii.

j z ?

the

Ldm,i.r)i,s'Lr'a

isn't

Live

structure wxc:

one

t:ere

it :;emn to me thcwt 'n t pre,-!t duel of nil incr's'it:,fon.

?

You don t

even getthe 1 ::ctr; ?

LrJ

ight . ?

You puyu wan t tor:ourit

(1

r'onorol

?

peojanmc utilining cour..cs alreauy in existanco or :;n t . Comes

that we airedoy hove on tue faculty, we already have oor;le to

teed:, all you want to do is integrate them ur a little bit and

lute o;'le that take

?

ion say that t":(- . y took tuem and get a

little thing that says they took 'them. Is chat right? That's all

it

JLn.

i'Ot

really.

Well what else is there? That ' s what I want to

g

et clear

The language, in future, not at the moment but later on when there' s

somebody available. There are students ... that woulu like to

study Arabic and Bantu languages.

Now of course that would depend on whether we take it. .wbezner

they like your orogramme or ..not, anybody who wants to take 3ar:tu

when 'then naturally you're not going to ever get a antu snedialist.

Chat, if in fact, you have .. ?

programmes made ur of --c-orle

?

already here with courses already here and there are a lot of

peoplethat are interested in it and it's swell then %-i e

?

e

reasonable about a 13antu s

p

ecialist someday. It seems to me that

this argument is over nothing.

Just as a point of information ho'.'; many of the twenty or thirty

of the Bantu languages are you going to offer. I mean baritu is

not the name of a language; it is a family of languages.

I happen to teach Africa; I know about that, I know

Well 'how many are you going to offer and what, vow

rflOW,,

Is it likely we're going to offer more than one? I mean is it?

The proposal says

I mean really, I can't take the speaker seriously because cf the

sort of

In the proposal it says Swahili sneaker maybe that will clear

it up for you.

Cell, you know, look, if you're only going to offer

one then, you know,

The reason for offerring just one happens to be in the rcort too.

It doesn't seem to me to be

C

C

/2L;

---

:b\;LdVL:

I ?

dor' t

?

sc::

dny ?

iider'ciit. . .

i.r.

the ?

pPçpo:.Ll.

.

::

?

thC

hu ?

I

5CCOt ?

O ?

this

wcu1

like to

nk a

qucsL

ion. ?

To what e>:tc:nt

pro'J'3;flifl

dc p

efldeflt

?

Ui)O11 ?

tc: eertj..Ficitc?

?

How

poe ?

:c

of the

tws and

anxctm as

that you're

,

rasi.mp

15

t3t

neopie

o'e

going to

shout ouportunin t at the faculty tie grand

?

irr-

hu ilders.

I mean thi::; is

?

o.ng

?

to

LO

na1wayn

Ot

t.e ?

:aculzy

I

it'

?

that it s here.

?

but to

w::a t ?

C. C;

?

in

t,.;

C.

can I think

good

succs ot

t:ic progranmc dependent upon

?

tOiU5

or

in

tmis of

a certif:Lcote cm with simply o

?

the trer cripn hA

in

Africcn'

St dies be sufficIent?

Well T don't - it wouldn t Pea 3. 1Y t! J.

?

y

ou could

COil it

L.A. in Afmicen St .ics or

?

rriilorly a ConnC tence in

AP.Cfl

Studies. but if you read the programme you' 11 see it

certaIn competence to do just a. little bit more t:n you would

do normally, to take the ordinary L.A.

Hore than an Honours

WUP:

Slightly more.

?

This de

p

ends of course on whether

?

yo' ure ?

r.;oing to

study Bantu or Swahili or whatever it may be.

?

Whic1

?

right wril

had icr

exmnle, an

e;:arwLa or

cost ver

y

little it someone

?

e

f one nod for examnie a graduate stuuent

15

mc ?

stology .,emertment

from Last Africa, which might well haen; he might

?

:ll :

?

-:d

to

therefore

pick

U ?

this

money

is

T .

a

A.

pity

an"

?

in

it

teacaing

won't be

Bantu

but

in

this

thin

is

context.really

and

?

Lowmost

truly interdisciplinary.

sTUULLT:

We are talking about the allocation of resources.

?

It would be

ossibl

c to have the kind of coordination that's being sugested

here on every area of the world; on the ::iddle Lost

and on

and on Lur9pe and South Last Asia and China &nd the Soviet

t;nion.

It's just i;imosslLle for this kind of coordination.

?

::o: this

suggestion made peculiarly by an Africanist, is that nil these

departments should focus on at least Africa and a counle

of

ethers.

Tnere are resources at stake here, resources of :acultw mime and

faculty interest.

?

You're not suggesting they -.

-

)

uZ

a lot more..:cr.,:

into teaching those courses in coordinating thcm..

p

It's not necessarily what

y

ou say.

?

It's add in

. ?

neonle to other

I _SOJ

Stupt

ceartments

?

nu leaving notr:ing to

?

ne studezs to go :no

s p

ecialized area of studies.

?

It just so happens the: Africa and the

tiudle Last are not offered anyplace else in Western Canada and

this is an opportunity here and as

a

History student nvcf

?

find

7.

a large gap with the courses that we have.

?

Right now I 'n not get: ma

what I want out of th

?

ese.

?

I. nee

?

d

an interclisciplifl2Py a;w-roech;

I need some Geogranhy,

?

I need some Scoriomics,

?

I need some hanguec:cs.

Language ?

because that' s

ncccssar

y

for an Africnist or

prmaniy

a 11iddle Lantern.

As I understand this proposal it s not necessarily so much just

increasing of just work.

?

As I see it all it would require is

:lust a little more COOPLU.flOtiOfl i:etwecfl courses of;reo rn PsA

and courses offered in History, whcn cc, as you nc

,

tic

/2

---

/ 25

\;.11d j u

L

I ep.Ly a I. it tic morc: coc)rd iso t ion ; tw:n t he

t uu t

?

1. acti.l Lie:; when these cou:: en are of Iered .

?

ic he of nor e Lenefit

Cant 'J ?

to the nt;.idents , let's !lavelens r:rdom.

I would like to ask

?

the stuclent bore

you

usc the expression

L;;iLnb

that

y

ou needed more interdi.sc;

p iinar'yno;etjm-.

?

flat I want to

ask you in what. are you looking for that you can'-,gut now?

Because in Dl5nnj.n-

r

your own schedule you go around and

y ou have this

from history, this from - what does thin proposal give you?

It gives me a language tnat I don '

t

nave rignt now. ?

Anc I con ' t

have any

OD

portunit

y

of getting it unless I go down to the United

Stat es,

POLSO'N:

Is the whole thing turning on this language ot?

?

Because an 1

understand it there was a Swahili teacher in the Dept. of Yodern

Languages in the early

?

days and he left for lack of customers.

And he was dyingto teach and he's gone back to Africa.

?

So

that you can't sort ofconjure up demands by waiving a mag:c wanc

and saying here's a man wno can teacu Bantu.

I ?

I thought it Was hindu wann' t it.

No. No.

?

I am from hodern Languages was a Swahili snecialirt

DUB

and he was never offered in the programme of :odern Lan;ea'es

•

and so he was never in the calendar so...

• Oh I see.

?

I hog your pardon.

?

But he' never

,

?

had a chance to teach it

this is what I'm getting at.

It may well turn out that we have, for all I know • a Swahili. sneaker

on campus now and we're just not making use on tse talent -

no idea.

Can I go

hack

to my question that the onl

y

thing then that this

programme would give you that you can't at present get

Uh huh right now it would be a language and there s alnc in

Ocogranhy de

p

artuent they are starting en a Gdorraskv ccn:'se in

Africa which would he of aid to me. Ritht now I can get, like

:105

say, I can get courses in PSA that arc sufficient for .:hnt I want

but this would make it complete.

I would say of course there's

also the matter of Economics and

there are Uconomics in Africa

within develoninc doen:nies.

That's not developing now.

No quite, and tas

15

350-Leer

tnlng tnat neorcwou: li:e to ccc.

-

So really your proposal is to

ginger u

p

other dcnartmer,e in this

Vdirection.

/2

ED

---

Ye:; •

?

ye:.;, ?

quIte

j)O ?

you ?

r ?

emner

?

wi:n ?

1. ?

•.;d

?

you

?

wrct t

?

inn ?

:.::ir' ?

a: ?

cc.rti ?

:cate

.i.nL.x

?

;rc:tn1 ?

thur ?

an ?

;

?

;:Ir,

?

witliJ.n ?

the ?

I ?

vrt7, ?

near

J.

on Lnuc ?

and ?

an

?

Onlaniw; ?

nine ?

htn

?

ia

4

;t.nd ?

out ?

.c: ?

;n7

?

c ?

the

Li(greec you know,

?

oro Rh

dcpr'cc ?

in a

rJ.nce

oi

?

pa:er. ?

hut

ipcn'

?

±5, ?

in

?

a

?

nnc, ?

iran:;J.a ?

aLln ?

into

?

t:n

?

lar

?

ua r ; ?

c

Univcrsitcn. ?

Fle ccrtif:icatn ?

Fm not sure

?

in or•c

?

; I

?

tn:n:

wht Several DeOT)lC nave either exnic1ty or

?

:e:tns It,

icr than nenaing

?

up

d

certifi.ca e PrOpOSOJ.,

?

thet Z;'.

?

inoart-

d

cot

topetho ?

nd ofler

?

ID ?

:roo ?

th

;ncnt:; ?

.tiivoi.vcd ?

;;licni.1

P ?

.win C :nd

?

0

?

:;toh in;',

?

.i C ?

;:i

I

Ii

?

these

?

beau C I In I

?

u'r'i:; ?

S

C er-

d w:C:±1)l±nar'y, ?

which really don't a

pp

ly. . . it

?

icr'

C

?

Ii

?

rd ?

cc iplinary

Jind

?

just cvolvi ng a programme which consists of: cou'cnn 1.L:-n arc;

other pro1rammC in the university, interdisciplinary or not, anc

o Ctor a degree in African studies

If you read the prograirmo carefully you will see that

?

iou car' t

get a

certificate or be recommended for one until

y

ou've

fulfilled

all the rcnuireTflents in the de

p

artment, whichever depart::er:t

?

ou

happen to he in,

1)CCaUSO

you still are in a (;c

p

artmcet • all t:e

requirement- s

ror a

L.A.

?

And therefore it

i

s quite trartL.e

in any other language uccause i

t

s still exactly the same trans-

lation.

Could we have,say, perhaps two or three more minutes on ::iddle

1 ?

Eastern and' African studies and then give Latin American studies

.

a chance?

P0:53:::

Do you require more than 120 credit hours for a ii. A. for your

programme?

I think that's a hard

q

uestion because Professor Sziger's wcrked

it all out.. .1 think with the languages the answer's yes -

?

ust

a few.

POSDh:

Eut the things like the English Honours hrograrr.me would ?ass?

Precisely.

Tucre' s one question that I tninx that prosably ::ats

fi

:nto :nc

Latin American Studies as well.

?

To what extent is the ::ean's

Office ready to fight in Senate for and releation o

?

t>re-

requisites in departments as sucn in order that, sa

y

, tn:s

teat the st udent does not necessarily nave to nave a L.A.

H istory along with a certificate of competence and

?

or:e:

?

tra:

other kinds of, you know, interdisciplinary course ororcoals car.

get off the ground?

?

So the students don't have to be,

YOU

know,

riding three or four rails at once?

Is an honours degree in

?

.... ?

do?

Well ir I may answer that question b

y

saying tflis rar'tcn.ar

representative of,

?

ron the hea;i' s Office, wouia reIlsi: a

to right in Senate o

r

a concrete proposa l

?

for recuctter. in

re

q

uisites.

?

As a matter of fact this particular rcnrcscntatiVc

/27

---

::bvh

1db':

.' ?

-..

?

.•

of the Dem

'

s Office t one tine

seriously ur000scc the

.Liinina Lion of all ]?ec-requIsitee and co-r

ui,nite

ruirerts

Unvcrsity.

Uhore did you propose it?

III thd history (leper Lnunt . Which anpr'oved of it in princ itie

and then we saw it d isanpoer into the blue as is so wont to

happen 'to proposal

s

of teat kinc

lOW do you get

iropon

on tIe . . . .

?

departncnt

They never did as a mat tea of fact but tht

a

?

z neither here or

n

there . I think the

answer

to your question decry is tin

W. : t

is needed if teese ncorlc

feel

that it' s

fleedeC, is

.er sc.neone

to

cone

forward with 'i oroposal

for

dror)

p

ing pre-recu

?

ce and

co-requisite

requrcments. Unless we

have one we .....

Why don't we

?

hack to

?

I

5015 wan

?

issue that

?

of?

us will

feca?

That we

wont to liberalize the degree which is

what you call uron ing the

p we-reaulszte, aut we

CO Ct

Li

backdoor every tine. All we have to

Co

is, as you say,

limit the maximum number of requirements, you teen lieeraize tne

degree.

No we have to do two things hen. As far as dronoing the

pre-requisites and co-requisites re

q

uirements we offer the

op

portunity for iiberalizatioTl of the degree. We don't, by

doing that, per se, liberalize the degree.

Oh but that's the issue that we always get back to because

teat reeiiy IICS at tee base of a good many or snese nroncsa..s.

And we do it in ways, you know, that are circumsoect t:.at ncac.r:y

knows what we're doing. And we throw these labels on it

'interdisciplinary'. Ten years ago

:bou

threw 'e>:istentlrw. or

something teat h

?

as noing

th ?

, to o

ri

with t e

e

o

rogramme as all.

mean we have never faced the issues in this University.

Well that may be true but you know, there are two senarase issues.

One is the liberalization of- the degree recuirenents all the other

is alterations and changes or went neomle wit":-:.i:7) tee a:rst:ne

degree re q

uirements can do. It seems to me teat teese are sararase

things and while they may be joined together as Professor asiove

suggests by the nrocess of reducing pre-reaulSltcS and ce-

reouisites to mare it more

p

oss

lble

for stucents to save rare

flaxiole nrogramsles teat doesn't necessar1ly sallow, tees

teere are serarate

q

uestions, teese are se

p

arate cuestires,

because you can liberalize tee degree requirement nor r :rw:eec

weat the students can take .ror courses

are

onay tee ex1itr.f

illiberal courses then you haven't liberalized anyser.g a: all.

• P'bc::;

?

What's a illiberal course?

---

/2J

You mean the courses in

the

interdisciplinery

stud

1CS?

uhSL:1

.---

Uh1t

wOUl(1

you

mCdi)

by new liberal course?

3UTbD :

A new liberal .coi i'sc - weLl

?

I ?

would uc f ire myself - end

?

I

really shouldn't, as chairman of this rncetJ ug, shoul Y t be

:pcakin', of course hut

?

I'll speak anyway.

?

A nc'; ieel course

is one which has a urofessional orientation, which is one in

Which. tue faculty members will teach tue

course

?

th the sot icr:

oi. lorcing students to do exactly

?

:kt be had been forced to do

in order to get to be a faculty somber.

?

In other ',.'ordn, you know,

That's an old war-cry; that's not a course.

?

It's a student

liar-Cry.

flay I ask again what one awfully terribly simple cuestior: of a -

is interdiscimlinary, can it mean anything cisc exceSt

administrative structure?

?

I s

n't it - doesn't it boil clown to

Who pays the wages?

Well interdisciplinary it seems to me, you know, wbt you ueve to

define, before you define interdisciplinary, is wuat you mean ny

disciplinary.

".

0 0 ,

S0:7 ?

I

At the moment it' s administrative isn't it, because you have the

faculties and the sub-divisions, and the de

p

artments, the budset..

That's only one way of getting into the whole

p

roblem of inter-

about ?

er cne man

disciplinary. ?

We raised ?

cuestion earlier

?

wheth

can teach an

i nterdiscini.inary course.

?

Proressor ::urste:n tn:nrs

I

t unlikely that one man could teach an interdiscimlifla'y course.

I'm not so sure that if, by disclplznary course, we moan, as we

do at Simon Fraser, a course which fits ifltO o

n

e racu.ty o: ArtS

eight, or with professor Carlson's rroposed denurtmcm:, nine

departmental disciplines; then you have nine disciplines tO tey

anytning wsch

i

s inter tuose nine uscplanes,

wtn and

iecomes interdisciplinary.

But don't we have electives out of which a B.A.

?

is ?

uilt. ?

Some

place

All of the electives in this University are within demartmcnts.

And so that what interdisciplinary, you elect to take and you get

at best a multi-disciplinary course.

The nucleus is within the department, but the surroundins electives

i:O.

?

the surrounding eiectlVCs are somebody clses'

?

cemar:mcnt.

?

re

they not?

0

---

/,;0

Oh 1 u': 'diit: you

?

cuI ?

Thwi

Lit:

Co'J.uc

?

tu sy

0:-led

. ?

iut.Lou tncit

.iL.'JJClj).i.i.Ilii1"'

W1 ?

netter of ad;-. i ration.

.i:i o1ucz to have :;omc

Wei.1. it's a dttjr oL f-name of mind as well, I third':, en well en

3nVthin: else.

But it

SeCiflS

to me , 'Lou know, that to saw -

ge

Lu

bud. to the sues LLon of ruducteg pr-e-r-csu.w; ites and co-rose initc:

we reduce the Dre-requini te:; end nro-ruJ.Lte:r.5tc:

?

Cil

right ou eec no-: free to take more

CC

rneu In

oL.eY ?

tC.:C5

the:: t; c o:c in w cL 'iou have a

You ha

yen

' t nccesr-i :;

done any thini

r

exce p

t give a student an lntroc;uct:or: to a vareety

of clisci lines.

The problem remains similar - it's a re-distribution.

Yeah. That s all von 'we cone really ny

d01fl5,

that

hell perneps we can turn,

i.-I

F we can, to Latin :5CniCan 5tCie5.

Professor Garcia is here to - Would

y

ou like

CO

sa,' anvt:ng?

I'm just going to touch sone fe-; points that

p er'

?

sdi:fee f:cm

'tue hici(ile Last/Atr:Lcan Studies.

?

dasiciilly tuis

?

gr'arr.mi

?

:s nor-c

or

?

less the same.

?

inc difference pernai)c

15 lii

two areas. ?

In tfliS

proposal for Latin American Studies we are asking for introducing

two courses that borefully will be interdicinlisary, or cross

discinlinary. ?

And these two courses; one will be in the iower

level credit, lower level courses; and the other in the umner

level courses. ?

It means 200 or generally sneaking whatever

W

the number is going to be and the other in the

1

400 jewel.

?

Of the

two courses one isgoing to b-c an introduction to

SCtIn

:mer'icar

Cultural aspects taught conjunctively by two or three rn-ofesscrs

one from Histor y

, Latin American Literature, a Geogramr.er, an

Ecologist, or so forth.

?

And t1-.e same tuing in the 400

?

evei. ?

This

is called an interdisci

p

linary seminar which is going to consist

of,

?

I ?

think, for a topic taken by a grou

p

of p rofessors that are

going to ac on campus for that particular semester.

?

:ne ta::e nor

instance Cuba today and take literature, Political nroblems, Cu.zunai

p roblems and so forth.

?

Other topics like indigenous mroblcms in the

cultures if the Andes and so forth.

?

This is a distinctive nic:ure

and I suppose in that area we are asking for some ;:.ucget to :a:;

many of the facul

t

y,

ton that

p

ronosat I tnin;z, to :;uv um one menson.

at a time on faculty trom these particular de

p artments that are

going to be involved,

ifl

those courses. ?

inc programme will tuen

consist of a - the core wtll be a regular r3... ucgnee in

department

that matter.

participating,

?

And this particular

or any denumber

p

artment

or courses

of the

for

unlvers:tytea:

are

already taught and are already in the Calendar in ;distorv, Gcogranhv,

Hodern Languages etc • are going, to be coordinated,

?

there s nothing

new to do to this coordination and they will have this tvrc of -

we haven't.., ?

but coscensraton on Lat:r

American Studies.

?

I think the reason why we ciun t as:; son a

?

.

degree in Latin American Studies was teat mernans, soosnn at tnc

practical moint, or ampointmcnt of stuuents in

.

:::en concentration,

.

in tee kind of my extent of tee relations wtn La:::] .men':cC end

other things, some students might like to have the tred tional

B .A. ?

so I will say b .A.

?

in History - concentrat:on in

American studies; b.A.

?

in Soanish Literature - concentration in

Latin American Studies; and so forth, and just broaden tr.eir area

Ill

---

/31

: ?

-

'oC'iLt ?

on

CAl'dLI) :

One oem

?

t .L want to raise,

?

wing lived in (ada all ow

n

?

ty i

ai ?

with

?

tt ucordc are in tcl

?

c ?

e

in

?

rc ?

1

there ril;iavs

?

ivis ?

seen a ?

lot of: ?

stroo. ?

interest

?

Li:

of our connections to i.i:ricEl, our connections ore rat:er

?

ro

tIroUOb the liriti

?

Lmurc and so on

ar:d

we

'we

Lncn involved t':ere

for three cuorters of a century or so.

?

In ?

cr.cral ?

crc

?

bcen

ver y

.Li ttla ?

.i.fltcl'(JSt

?

in Latin America and ?

I ?

ree.1y cuite

doubt ful I S lucre is very muchinterest in Latin A:cr.ca

I .Ll just give you an example of statisticS ,

?

in tefie.d eS

University Service overseas, two thirds of our volu:, ecrs er: in

!\fricn

?

about:

5b

arc in Let In America and I

?

somehow

really how great the interest will he in a Latin /merice:./Aoian

nrogrcmmc, - a Latin American Studios programme - irresr:cctive of

how good or how bad it is

Con ?

answer. that?

?

I tnink a recent cevelors:ent.

in the actual revision in the Government of Canada is showing

that there is interest In Latin America.

?

The outlet for !.mcrican

goods going to Cuba as Canada

. ?

Few ?

. .

?

are con teiw;lotec

L1,;

opmoced to the onening in Latin America.

?

!md I think Cameda is

revising DerhapL; its International Politics in locking hoc:: so she

--m. s

, , ? orc. ?

Let me mention, serbo s the foundins of the learned

societ y

of Latin American Studies last year at York University.

.

In the business world there is - what is it? - an associatior. for

Latin America in which all main industrial com

-p

anies are rerresented.

flow is enrollment in your courses in Latin American?

?

The ezistins

courses at Simon Fraser?

Well it is cute meagre...

I think that's probably

flow many students in introductor

?

Smanish as compared so

Introductory French or something like that?

GALCIA: ?

I don't know about French.

CA:hS3:;: ?

bore in Spanish, its easier.

Arcs.

Anyway there is the histor

y

Department; history 21; - l students;

Histor y

451 -

15 students;

1,52

Histor

-

y

17 students ?S,. Pi2 -.

20; PSI 342 - 32, that's in the current semester; Latin. American

Literature 23; in translation-and introduction to Latin American

Literature 0, tnat s vitnout counting the stucents snvclvad

languages because languages are a skill and we have already

languages established. I think that altogether the Smenish

division has about 200 students in different levels.

/32

---

/32

Another point

?

that ' swhat

?

1. ?

:1

baQup my figures for s(v:

S C:;CCflt S

in t:is

üi ?

median

?

KnivQrsKy service

?

oie'::t:ri:.

?

Almost

?

'i(.3'

).51" ?

J' ' '/C

got

?

in ?

LaLK A:rc:rica are ?

premedical ?

cngi:cswhicn

?e

don

' t naVe at Simon Fruner.

I think the reason why CiJL() - this is a - .1 think Latin America

is getting momentum now, I recognize it perhaps,

C

new interest,

a new link with Canada but that doesn't mean that it

'

s

?

o.nm to

stay

OUP Wfl'/

More highjackings - plane highjackings, to Latin Americcn than to

Africa.

hOP:

I think possibly one ex

p

lanation is that there are a lot of

French speakers in Canada, as we all know, whereas there nrohably

arm' t so many Spanish speakers.

?

And therefore there are mann

people who would naturally be qualified and Very

USCZU.L

Kecause

there are anart from French

p

eo p

le who have completed

t.1S.

to speak French that are extremely useful in the developins world.

'iisc'y are not tainted in this way and they are very valuable and

very welcome.

?

And this may explain, and there's no earthly reason

way

II

we don't teach teem Spanish, they wouldn't

DC JUSt

as

valuable and just as welcome in Latin America.

Actually I'm not sure this is true.

?

As far as emrioyment and thin

A06 of thing in Latin America, Latin American people are nowhere

s

p

ecialized have rather a surplus of teachers, unenuloyad teachers

by the hundreds in Latin America and this sort of thing.

?

If people

expect to use this kind of

p erson, ?

it's best to get a L.A.

?

in

history and go to Latin America and actually to something, he just

won't get a job period.

You mean there's teachers unemployed in Latin America?

Yes I thins it's true.

?

One of the countries

?

. ' y

e got statstjcs on

one in

?

ten.

CAhCIA:

I don't think so; I think it's the other way around.

CIA

All right against statistics again Simon Fraser has never mean aule

to place a CUSO volunteer in Latin America.

it's inevitable ?

... ?

they don't know anything about Latin

America.

All right we'll start sometime.

they

Will

start - we have none

y

arn cood candidates, ther

?

'

no :) ohs

?

1-or them .

?

We could

p

lace Engineers. ?

I

' m not arg.:

?

::

age ieSt y

our programme, ?

I

'

m just: warning you.

. ?

:

:AtA :

I third: progress

p

robably is the matter, as with Asian pswic as

well it's the matter of language barrier as well.

?

In et:.cs' woras

it' ?

very easy to send people to iarbados or to English speaking

Afzjct

atId

also because of the system.

?

IF you have within the

Anglo- Saxon system it's easy to talk,

?

i'r; çp' 1P

a

/t

---

/j

or' ?

tul ?

wi

you ?

nec: ?

t

?

}Iren:; ?

in

of ii.Li ?

r:w:r:

In

Lh' ?

in',' • ?

Lie ?

nn; ?

in very

?

fcrenL and ;r'cbanly

v'Jrr;cc:ien

: ?

C

?

:i ?

C1

vertilenn

now

?

Lhe

;i. c...

for

iii ?

Anr.: can ?

tudien t i is ?

vOLI

?

ifl ?

t: ?

. . . .

C:

;un:

?

tiiC: ?

oul: :,.tUiILi

j fl c

p

eoule and ti ey have , I

don' t

n&jo j

c ?

1.i ?

ht

?

low in

I.Otlfl ?

/lner.Lcan

?

. . .

Lt

?

?

11 ?

CO1'r..

I non' twant to nunh

the issue,

?

I

jUS t

want

to warn 'iou that from

m y

?

;ort of infornat ion

From CUL()

?

O.r.d to my

own personal e>:r)cr:cnce

of iivi ng in Canada

for over 20 years, that

there's rot

?

icr', much

it ?

?

- t.

?

En y be

?

it's

developing,,

?

1 don't know.

It is developing

_____

?

kaybe it is, but I really don't -accep

t

your evidence that

it

Er. Worn - he went to a lot of other places bcsido:; hatis America

for example no wont to.

lie went to Latin America

I ?

Yes, but be also Sweden, and to all sorts of other places; to

Africa, to the Iliddle East.

OAhCIA:

Right but, you know, this business with Latin America

?

cu cannot

see tne whole continent in a few weeks and that kind o

?

thing.

•

Are tnere any other comments.

how do you stimulate interest unless you teach courses?

?

I moan

tnat' s the ma

j

or thing rignt? ?

I mean now

,

can you no interestec

unless you offered areas for. a person to study

in

tUiS area?

I su

p

nose it's true.

?

We have some now, I

!

m just

wonderin

g

really,

I

just, you know,

?

I'm not arguing against the

p ro p osal, ?

:'n

warning that as you know in any high school there's almost no

emohass on Latin American at all curing Junior nigs anc

sensor

bight. ?

One becomes fairly com

p

etent in African geogranh

?

and

history and so on but Latin America isn't mentioned.

?

And it's a

hard thing to start because interests are formed,

?

at the

junior blob and senior high school level.

\vell interest is always not very much at the ne

innIng cc any

project

and you

nave to stimulate interest and you stimulate

by developing your courses and your project.

Naybe we will.

?

I'm ouite happy to have it stimulated, I've go:

nothing against it.

Well the way to stimulate it is to set up new courses.

o emphasis - tere'

S 11n.itc5

runes we can't

Yes but what

I'M

trying t

?

n

finance these programmes.

/

---

S

/3

Ibis ?

ant; to me to ha a

r)c;rtc:CtJ.y

csihlc , sound, odest:

roaai and c'ven tho pr :CnL iw;turcei trend its uem:; to me

to ha a r .it;ojnihlc one .

?

1: don't re: LAy

U

ndcsrn tan(l the osi ctions

?

1 tILiik CaJa in i;ovjn p

in to closer connection vi th

America. The qucston I have is

?

you nay thin really will - row ?

ur; t to add in a couple more courses to wha two already have in

the calendar -

CAhCIA: ?

and coordinate the others, yes

OD

?

and coordinate the others - no: that coordinating - : don t knoy

how

YOU'

re going to coordinate it or what ha s to be cone in order

to coordinate thorn but wiry istiiis coming Eorwnrd

CS a,

Cu no.;,

sort on- a great big proposal; wh

y oren' t you having

t;O5e SOOPIC

simmlv

q uietl y

write

UT)

tire course oroposals ama scrci:r, tsor to

faculty and to Senate and so on; getting team

into

tme caaerraar

I don't understand why.

.

I think that'-' all we want

aay I answer that question? A large mart of the reason is because

in order to mount these two interdisci p linary courses there is the

need for money to release time eec faculty rrorn exacting car:memt:.

I see

and if the Latin American Studies people were sinmly asking for

calendar entry it could he done in othcr y aws, hut one of the

curious t;riflgs is that walle tuere ' s a good dea or ta.a in

various nuarters or tao faculty asmut

_11"t

er-

"

,

_ ; -c i-)!

: r: coarsec

when the nuest on cones for rel easinc T

time for faculty

to teacn them, the derartmental courses always have nrioritv c-var

the courses being taught outside. And the only way to

this is - given the present state of affairs - to have scme mosey

avalaale. I t;ranS teat - am I mis-stati

n g the reasons - snot snas

is the reason this has come in the

p resent form.

a

?

.1:

.

It seems to me mroI)ehly financially for this proposal and a sound

one. I certainly would like to supnort it.

An

y other comments on U itinAmerican St nd ion?

oy - on tao Jemartr:rcnt of ircnaeology.

Unlike the orevious oronosal, this one is a disci p linar y rather

than an nteruiscinlinary mrorosai. Anci \-:nat it Coes as

to cnange soth tne ad:niniastratsvc arc curricular organisatnon ca

Archaeolog y from a non-de p artmental studies mrogramme to a

departmental majors ?

ogramne . At nrescnt ?

co

c

c -

?

sacministerec

as a trusteeshi p

of cue Dean of Arts and oae

C:-' ?

a seracs

'CSOPCI,

of credit courses in the Faculty of Arts. And what the re-orranized

programme does is present a set of core Archaeolo.

r

y cousses :ch

are designated as a major, a set of courses in otacn' discinuines

wricri comnlement Arcuacology and which are reconnesnea tar

archaeology majors to take. And then it proviucs tar sne

administration of the Drogramne through a demartmorrtal structure.

The re-organization itself is predicated on the basis that

/35

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/35

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